European
Commission President Ursula von der Leyen
'The Brexit
Drama Is a Bitter Lesson for Populists'
European
Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has no shortage of challenges facing
her as she begins her tenure. She spoke with DER SPIEGEL about Donald Trump,
climate change and the state of democracs inside the EU.
Interview
Conducted by Markus Becker, Peter Müller and Martin Knobbe
European
Commission President Ursula von der Leyen
Peter
Rigaud/ DER SPIEGEL
European
Commission President Ursula von der Leyen
January 07,
2020 02:35 PM
DER
SPIEGEL: Ms. President, when you spoke about the European Union with DER
SPIEGEL in a 2011 interview, you threw your support behind the concept of a
"United States of Europe." Is that still your goal now that you have
become president of the European Commission?
Von der
Leyen: The "United States of Europe" is a project for my children.
The path to that goal is a long one. All member states will have to be ready to
contribute to deeper integration. In my generation, the priority is that of
putting Europe in a strong position. I want to further develop the leadership
role in areas like climate policy and digitalization, for example.
DER
SPIEGEL: You have said that Europe must be more self-confident on the world
stage and have referred to the EU executive under your leadership as the
"geopolitical Commission." What would you like to achieve?
Von der
Leyen: Europe is in a strong position as an economic power, and we are seen
around the world as a defender of the rule of law. But there are also moments
when Europe must take strong, rapid action. We have to better prepare ourselves
for those moments. Six years ago, Mali faced collapse in the face of terror,
and there was a political will in Europe to do something to help. But we didn't
have the necessary structures. If the French hadn't forcefully intervened, Mali
would have ceased playing its role as a stabilizing element in the Sahel
region.
DER
SPIEGEL: Where do you see Europe from a geopolitical perspective? In third
place behind the U.S. and China?
Von der
Leyen: I don't see it as a vertical arrangement. I am convinced that
fundamentally, we are on the same side of the table as the Americans, even if
we may disagree on some issues internally.
DER
SPIEGEL: You plan on visiting U.S. President Donald Trump in the coming weeks.
During your tenure as German defense minister, you had harsh words of criticism
for Trump on occasion - for his comments about NATO, for example, but also for
his closeness with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Will you continue using
the same tone with him?
Von der
Leyen: That was early on in his term and a lot has changed since then. His
comment at the time that NATO was obsoletetriggered the necessary momentum in
Europe to modernize NATO and to get the ball rolling toward a European Defense
Union. It became clear to the Eastern Europeans that we also had to develop
military structures within the EU.
DER
SPIEGEL: There are a variety of different ways to approach Trump. Your
predecessor Jean-Claude Juncker was able to gain a modicum of respect through
his chummy style. What is your strategy?
Von der
Leyen: I'm going to go into the meeting with a completely open mind. When it
comes to initial meetings, a lot depends on intuition. I know the Americans
well. I spent time in the U.S. during my schooling and later lived there for
several years. Two of my children are American citizens. As such, I have a
sense for the unique perspective of America and the Americans.
DER
SPIEGEL: Trump has withdrawn from the Paris Agreement on the climate and has
also chosen a confrontational approach to Europe on trade. Even beyond those
two issues, there is a fair amount of friction between the U.S. and the EU. The
U.S. wants to destroy the nuclear deal with Iran while Europe would like to
save it. The U.S. has levied sanctions pertaining to the Nord Stream 2 natural
gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. Which of these controversial issues will
you discuss first?
Von der
Leyen: My first priority will be that of describing just how good day-to-day
relations between Americans and Europeans actually are. There are millions of
friendships and links: in the private sphere, in the world of science and
business, and culturally. We defend democracy together, something that isn't
self-evident in the world of today. Many cities and regions in the U.S., along
with the state of California, continue to operate within the framework of the
Paris Agreement. Of course, there are controversial issues when it comes to
economic and trade relations, but that's just part of the story.
DER
SPIEGEL: The U.S. has threatened to slap punitive tariffs on German cars. Among
your most ambitious goals is the European Green Deal, which includes a CO2
border tax designed to protect European companies. Isn't that just an emulation
of Trump's use of trade policy as a weapon?
Von der
Leyen: It is completely normal for Europe and the U.S. to defend their own
interests. The reasoning behind the CO2 border tax is quite simple. To take one
example, we in Europe are working towards CO2-neutral steel production in a few
years. That will result in a clean product that will benefit the global climate
and will likely be a bit more expensive. We cannot allow Europe to be flooded
at the same time with cheap, perhaps state-subsidized steel from China that is
produced in a less environmentally friendly manner. To create a level playing
field, we either need a CO2 border tax or China can introduce an emissions
trading scheme, which would be even better.
DER
SPIEGEL: The U.S. ambassador in Germany, Richard Grenell, claims that with the
sanctions introduced against the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, the U.S. has the
support of 15 European countries, the European Parliament and the European
Commission. Is he right?
Von der
Leyen: It is true that the pipeline project also has a political dimension and
that the European Commission with its funding is protecting the interests of
eastern member states. On the other hand, though, the European Commission is
vehemently opposed to sanctions against European companies that are legal
participants in projects.
DER
SPIEGEL: Another conflict with the U.S. centers around the Chinese
telecommunications giant Huawei. Washington is demanding that EU countries not
rely on the company when it comes to expanding the 5G network. You are planning
to submit proposals on the issue soon. What do they look like?
Von der
Leyen: Together with all member states, we have collected ideas with the goal
of arriving at a common European position. The 5G and 6G infrastructures are
critical technologies for the secure flow of data in Europe, for our economy,
for public administration and for the private sector. We aren't focused on a
single company, rather we as the EU want to develop fundamental standards. One
of these standards has to be that the companies that provide us with these
highly sensitive technologies are independent and cannot be coerced by their
governments to provide data.
DER
SPIEGEL: That would take Huawei out of the equation. There is a national
intelligence law in China that would seem to include the possibility of exactly
that sort of coercion.
Von der
Leyen: We have to speak in depth about this issue. If there is a risk that data
from citizens or companies could be accessed as a result of this law, then we
cannot accept it.
DER
SPIEGEL: You are demanding that Europe play a more self-confident role on the
world stage. Yet the EU is in the process of losing a strong partner. Britain
isn't just one of the largest economies in the EU but also one of two permanent
members of the UN Security Council from Europe and one of two nuclear powers in
Europe. How severely does Brexit weaken EU foreign and security policy?
Von der
Leyen: The consequences of Brexit will actually be less severe when it comes to
foreign and security policy. In contrast to other areas, the British were
extremely reserved when it came to joint security policy and blocked some
advances within the EU. That is why the European Defense Union could only
really get going after the Brexit referendum. Both sides, though, are now eager
to establish close cooperation.
DER
SPIEGEL: The British government would like to secure a comprehensive deal on
future relations by the end of 2020. Is that realistic?
Von der
Leyen: It is a major concern of mine because time is extremely short for the
vast number of questions that have to be negotiated. It's not just about trade
policy, but also about security issues and fishing rights, to name just a
couple of examples. That is why we want to initially focus on issues where the
lack of a deal could create the largest problems due to the absence of
international rules that would apply in the case of a hard Brexit.
DER SPIEGEL:
The Brexiteers have promised that the United Kingdom will be better off without
the EU. If Brexit is, indeed, successful, it could become something that
populists from other countries in Europe will seek to emulate.
Von der
Leyen: It's not the countless promises that matter, but reality. The Brexit
drama has already become a bitter lesson for all those populists who have
fantasized about leaving the EU. One after the other, they have silently buried
their erstwhile strident demands for "Grexit," "Dexit" or
"Frexit." Over the last five years, the international situation has
shown that it isn't helpful for any country to stand completely on its own. The
EU must now forge ahead. Brexit has cost a lot of political capital. Just think
of the many nights in the European Council during which Brexit was discussed
instead of important issues like the climate, migration or the further
integration of the internal market.
DER
SPIEGEL: Your own project, one intended to demonstrate Europe's renewed
strength, is a climate package known as the Green Deal. How do you intend to
garner the support of all 27 member states?
Von der
Leyen: We are facing a huge task, but there is also new momentum. On the day
after I presented my Green Deal, the EU heads of state and government brought
their months of discussions to an end and agreed to the goal of making the EU
climate neutral by 2050.
DER
SPIEGEL: Poland insisted on an exception.
Von der
Leyen: Poland may need more time, but it didn't question the goal of climate
neutrality itself. A clear majority of the European population wants
policymakers to do something to address global warming.
DER
SPIEGEL: But what if people don't want to change their lifestyles? You are, of
course, familiar with the reports that Germans are flying more than ever
before. The number of SUV registrations is also climbing by the year.
Von der
Leyen: We won't solve the problems by making flying impossible or banning
driving. Our path is that of investing in new, clean energies. The aeronautics
industry is conducting intensive research into the possibility of using
hydrogen as a power source. I've already mentioned CO2-neutral steel
production. I would like to see Europe exporting such products and technologies
to the wider world and not a situation in which other powers one day force us
to take action or become innovation drivers themselves.
DER
SPIEGEL: A liter of gasoline costs around 1.40 euros at German gas stations. In
France, the yellow vest protests were triggered by gas prices of 1.80 euros per
liter. Where are the limits of what can be demanded from citizens when it comes
to climate protection?
Von der
Leyen: It is clear that the costs for climate protection can't simply be passed
on one-to-one. Social equality is one of the key elements of the European Green
Deal and must go hand-in-hand with investments in a clean future. When we
invest in building improvements, then heating costs sink for tenants, even if
energy will cost more in the future. For the large coal-mining regions, we are
planning a multi-billion-euro fund to help companies and people make the
adjustment.
DER
SPIEGEL: Listening to you, one could be forgiven for assuming that you are from
the Green Party. But you're actually a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's
center-right Christian Democratic Union.
Von der
Leyen: First and foremost, I am a European. But I still, of course, stand for
the politics that I practiced in the past. When the population has advanced
further than the parties, then it is time to rethink one's own concepts. That
was the case with family policy several years ago and the same process is now
taking place with climate policy.
DER
SPIEGEL: There are issues such as migration on which the EU is in complete
disagreement. Heads of government like Viktor Orbán of Hungary are quite happy
to benefit from the EU financially but are otherwise opposed to almost
everything for which Europe stands. Your political role model Wolfgang Schäuble
once spoke of a two-speed Europe. Do all countries really have to participate
in everything together? Or would it perhaps make sense to disengage from
someone like Orbán and give up the principle of unanimity?
Von der
Leyen: I don't think that is a good idea. The European Union is the most
diverse and livable place on the planet because it has consistently been able
to translate diverse interests and cultural currents into a shared movement. We
shouldn't be so merciless with ourselves. The EU has grown in the last several
years, and I don't mean just economically. Take a look at the General Data
Protection Regulation, for example. By adopting it, we established a new
standard for the entire world in support of a form of digitalization that
starts with individuals and seeks to respect the rights of people. That is the
correct path: debate with each-other, but stay together. It's not always easy,
but Europe arrives at a fair settlement, while in the U.S. things are
frequently imbalanced in favor of the market or, in China, the state.
DER
SPIEGEL: But when it comes to existential questions, that path doesn't lead the
EU to solutions. Hungary and other Eastern European countries simply reject the
notion that they should accept a larger number of migrants should the need
arise.
Von der
Leyen: There has been no movement on the issue lately, but migration will be
something that Europe will have to face for decades to come. We won't solve the
problem by forcibly compelling certain EU member states to act. I have spoken
with many heads of state and government in recent months and my impression is
that all of them are eager to leave behind this period of paralysis. I intend
to present a comprehensive migration package this spring. The focus will be on
reforming the Dublin Regulation and on organizing asylum proceedings at the EU
level. The Dublin system, according to which the country where an asylum seeker
first arrives is solely responsible for asylum proceedings and accommodation,
is simply unfair for countries like Italy, Spain or Greece that are
particularly exposed.
DER
SPIEGEL: The images from Greece, the overflowing refugee camps: It all combines
to paint a shameful picture of Europe. The people can't really wait until you
and the EU member states come up with a universal concept.
Von der
Leyen: The Commission is in touch with the Greek government. Our priority is
rapid assistance and it will be provided.
DER
SPIEGEL: What do you think of the proposal from Robert Habeck, the co-head of
the German Green Party, that Germany should focus on accepting children from
the Greek camps?
Von der
Leyen: As president of the European Commission, I cannot interfere in German
national politics. It is important to me that Europe achieves a sustainable
solution for protecting our borders and for a humane migration policy. That has
to be Europe's calling card.
DER SPIEGEL:
In Brussels, many see you as an emissary of Merkel's, but in Berlin, there is a
feeling that you are closely aligned with French President Emmanuel Macron, who
essentially opened the door to your appointment. Are you a Macron ally?
Von der
Leyen: The great thing about the last several weeks is that I was able to put
together my own majority in European Parliament. In July, I was elected with a
razor-thin majority of just nine votes. After that, I started to speak
frequently and directly with the representatives, for many hours at a time. And
I gave no interviews at all.
DER
SPIEGEL: It was almost like you had disappeared.
Von der
Leyen: But this focus on internal work and on the Parliament was worth it. We
used the time to assemble the current Commission and to refine our program,
with the result that I now, after four months, enjoy a broad majority for my
team. In parallel, I worked on securing the confidence of the heads of state
and government. Otherwise, they would never have united behind the target of
climate neutrality.
DER
SPIEGEL: If we may, your program reads as though Macron wrote it: climate
protection, European minimum wage, a "European unemployment benefits
reinsurance scheme."
Von der
Leyen: Slow down a bit. Climate protection is supported by 26 additional EU countries.
And come on, I was responsible for introducing the first minimum wage in
Germany, in the caregiving sector. The unemployment reinsurance plan,
meanwhile, is essentially no different than the program we used in Germany to
get through the hard times following the 2008 financial crisis. As labor
minister at the time, I found the instrument to be quite useful.
DER
SPIEGEL: The EU can only demonstrate strength externally if it is unified
internally. But the contrary is currently the case, even when it comes to
fundamental values such as the freedom of the press and of research. Poland and
Hungary are veering toward a more autocratic model. For how long do you intend
to stand by and watch?
Von der
Leyen: We're certainly not standing by and watching. And in the cases of Poland
and Hungary, our message is extremely clear. One of the foundations of our
European Union is the rule of law and we are using the processes that we have
available to us in situations when things are going in the wrong direction. Ultimately,
the European Court of Justice will issue a verdict. What I really value in our
member states is that they accept it - sometimes only begrudgingly and with
fists balled in their pockets - but they accept it when the rule of law speaks.
That, too, is a reason to be proud of Europe.
DER
SPIEGEL: Ms. President, we thank you for this interview.
This
interview was originally published in the Dec. 28, 2019 issue of DER SPIEGEL.
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