An
Interview with Seehofer 'We Want a Solution to the Immigration
Problem'
For
months, the refugee policy rift between Chancellor Angela Merkel and
her nominal political ally Horst Seehofer, the powerful governor of
Bavaria, has been widening. In an interview with SPIEGEL, Seehofer
says the rift could worsen if Merkel doesn't agree to a hard ceiling
on immigration.
Interview Conducted
by Markus Feldenkirchen and Ralf Neukirch
September 16, 2016
06:10 PM
The debate has been
raging for more than a year now. Ever since German Chancellor Angela
Merkel opened up the country's borders to refugees in early September
of 2015, Horst Seehofer has been using every opportunity at his
disposal to voice his disagreement. As head of the Christian Social
Union (CSU) party, he is not someone who can easily be shrugged off.
The CSU is the Bavarian sister party to Merkel's Christian Democratic
Union (CDU). The two parties, which collectively are known simply as
the "union," have a long tradition of campaigning together
ahead of general elections and of divvying up cabinet posts should
the center-right end up in government, which, for the last 12 years,
it has. The CSU has no chapters in any other state while the CDU has
no state chapter in Bavaria.
As the rift has
widened, Seehofer has begun calling that long partnership into
question, even raising the possibility that his party might campaign
on its own ahead of next year's parliamentary elections and put up a
CSU chancellor candidate. To avoid that eventuality, he is demanding
that Merkel take clear steps toward reversing her immigration
policies and adopting a ceiling on the number of refugees Germany is
willing to take in, a step Merkel has refused to take, citing
potential inconsistencies with the German constitution. Last week,
the CSU released a paper, called "Germany Must Remain Germany,"
outlining steps it would like to see taken, including the abolishment
of dual citizenship and a preference for migrants from the
"Christian-Western culture." It is demands such as these
that have led some to compare the CSU with the right-wing populist
party Alternative for Germany (AfD), which has gained significant
amounts of support in recent months in Germany.
DER SPIEGEL spoke
with Seehofer about his relationship with the chancellor, his vision
for the country's immigration policy and accusations of populism that
have been levelled against him.
SPIEGEL: Mr.
Seehofer, when a husband spends an entire year maligning his wife in
public, should he not at some point gather the courage to put an end
to the relationship?
Seehofer: Every
married couple has disputes from time to time, and in every good
marriage, an attempt is made to overcome the dispute. That is what we
are currently trying to do.
SPIEGEL: The
intensity and abrasiveness of your criticism of Angela Merkel is
without precedent. When are you going to finally actually do
something, like pull the CSU out of the federal government? Doing so
wouldn't even trigger a political crisis, since the CDU and the
center-left Social Democrats (SPD) would still have a parliamentary
majority without the CSU.
Seehofer: Leaving
the government would be disadvantageous for both the CSU and the CDU.
That's why we aren't giving up and are continuing to search for a
future-oriented solution. Angela Merkel and the CDU have in the
meantime adopted several of our demands. What we now need is a system
of rules, a kind of guarantee, for drastically limiting the influx of
refugees. The past cannot be allowed to repeat itself.
SPIEGEL: Angela
Merkel still hasn't received an invitation from you to attend the CSU
party convention. And you have said you're not certain you will
attend the CDU party convention. Such mutual appearances have decades
of tradition in Germany. Don't you think your bickering has sunk to a
playground level?
Seehofer: Our
politics are steered by logic. If Angela Merkel was to appear at the
CSU convention and I was to visit the CDU, despite the fact that we
are miles apart on the essential coordination of our policies, you
know full well the damage that would do to the union. The expectation
is that party leaders solve problems. That's why substantial
differences must first be cleared up. I can't yet tell you today if
we will be successful. But since last weekend, I am quite a bit more
confident that we will be.
SPIEGEL: You have
threatened to file a legal complaint against the federal government
and you invited Angela Merkel's political adversary Hungarian Prime
Minister Viktor Orbán to a meeting of CSU leaders. Given such
provocations, can one still speak of "sister parties" and
of a "union"?
Seehofer: Yes, of
course. We are sisters and we are a union. The last year has been a
difficult period for the CDU and the CSU, the most difficult period
that I myself have actively experienced. We have seen election
results that can make none of us happy. In Baden-Württemberg, the
CDU is behind the Green Party and in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania it
is behind the Alternative for Germany (AfD). But we are now looking
ahead to the future.
SPIEGEL: Your party
can bluster and threaten all it wants, but you will ultimately have
to find common ground with the CDU so as not to do too much damage to
the CSU.
Seehofer: No one has
to tell me that constant conflict, and I emphasize constant conflict,
is damaging. But it is also true that policies will have to change if
we want to win back trust.
SPIEGEL: There is
something else that your party has to worry about: If the CDU was to
establish a chapter in Bavaria at some point, it would be the end of
the CSU's absolute majority in the state. Former CDU general
secretary Ruprecht Polenz recently mentioned the possibility.
Seehofer: There are
many brainy people from the past, but we're not particularly
impressed with such talk. Our contact people are in Berlin, the
chancellor first and foremost.
SPIEGEL: We have
examined dozens of interviews that you have given in recent months.
You talk a lot about refugee policy, but one thing is constantly left
ambiguous, perhaps intentionally. What concrete steps does Angela
Merkel have to take before you will say: "Okay, now we'll back
off?"
Seehofer: We want a
solution to the immigration problem. To do that, we first need a
ceiling. We don't want unlimited immigration like we saw last year
and that's why we need binding measures as a guarantee. When
announcements are made that we are combatting the root causes of
flight, then they must be combined with concrete measures. When it is
said that those who don't have a right to asylum will be sent back,
then we together with the federal government must enact a detailed,
binding repatriation program. We want a clear system of rules that
clearly and credibly reduces immigration to a reasonable level.
SPIEGEL: So you are
sticking to your demand for a hard ceiling of 200,000 immigrants per
year despite its potential inconsistencies with the guaranteed
fundamental right to asylum?
Seehofer: Yes. We
want a policy that safeguards this ceiling. We also, by the way,
already changed the constitution to make this possible 23 years ago.
With the support of all parties. Our constitution does not require us
to take everybody who appears at our borders and demands asylum. And
when someone comes from a safe country of origin, we can immediately
repatriate them. The ceiling will work and it is consistent with the
constitution.
SPIEGEL: The
chancellor and several other CDU politicians have repeatedly insisted
that they will not accept a ceiling. If the approval of such a
ceiling is the prerequisite for an agreement, then there won't be any
agreement.
Seehofer: We'll see.
We will not back away from the 200,000 ceiling. It's about our
credibility, plain and simple.
SPIEGEL: Given that
anything seems possible at this point, is a situation conceivable
whereby the CDU enters the campaign with Merkel as its candidate for
chancellor and the CSU says: We won't support her?
Seehofer: We as a
party will make personnel decisions in the first quarter of 2017.
German history is full of serious mistakes pertaining to premature
personnel decisions.
SPIEGEL: Last
weekend, CSU leaders presented a paper containing the party's refugee
policy demands and it is full of odd sentences. Such as this one: "We
are opposed to our cosmopolitan country being changed by immigration
or refugee flows." How cosmopolitan can a country be if it
doesn't want to be changed by immigration?
Seehofer: The
paper's title is: "Germany Must Remain Germany." The
chancellor has used almost the exact same formulation. When she says
it, it's considered liberal and future oriented. When we say it, it's
seen as reactionary and backwards.
SPIEGEL: Merkel
never said that immigration cannot be allowed to change the country.
Seehofer: Look,
Bavaria is a dynamic, cosmopolitan state. Those who don't adapt fall
behind. But we need ground rules. In every governmental speech I give
before state parliament, I say: Bavaria will remain Bavaria. That's
not a contradiction.
SPIEGEL: There are
other controversial sentences in your paper. "In the future,
immigrants from our Christian-Western culture must be given
priority." Do you intend to select immigrants based on their
religion?
Seehofer: Nonsense.
For people who must fear for their lives because of their religion or
political convictions, the protection provided by Article 16a of the
German constitution, the right to asylum, applies. Nobody is
questioning that. Irrespective of that, there is immigration that
must be regulated, to bring skilled personnel to Germany, for
example. We have to establish criteria for that. Their affiliation
with the Christian-Western culture should be one of them. Such people
are the easiest to integrate.
SPIEGEL: You don't
want any computer specialists from India in Bavaria?
Seehofer: We say
"priority." That doesn't exclude a Chinese vice president
of a Bavarian university, as we've had before. But even if we remain
flexible, we need ground rules. That is what we are trying to express
with this sentence.
SPIEGEL: The paper
is full of sentences that lack clarity.
Seehofer: Oh my God,
every Saturday I read sentences in SPIEGEL that lack clarity.
SPIEGEL: We just
wonder whether the ambiguity is intentional. Whether you perhaps
consciously intend to send messages to the far-right spectrum for
which you have a different explanation in an interview with us.
Seehofer: Our
thinking isn't nearly that serpentine. Our paper is being interpreted
in all kinds of ways that aren't explicitly stated.
SPIEGEL: We just
want to find out how certain things were meant.
Seehofer: I know
full well what is being said about us in this one square kilometer of
the Berlin government quarter and which false trails are being laid.
We are always presented as the evil Bavarians who only want to throw
a wrench in the system. When we say how we see things, we are
instructed to adopt a more moderate tone. It's always the same game.
And it's always the same people.
SPIEGEL: In the
Bundestag recently, the chancellor called for the use of more
moderate language. Do you think she was talking about you?
Seehofer: I wondered
who she was talking about. One day later, I spoke with (SPD head)
Sigmar Gabriel and he was wondering the same thing. There are nice
political formulations that can apply to everyone and to nobody. I
wouldn't know how I could be more reserved in my formulations than I
already am.
SPIEGEL: Another
question about your paper: In rejecting dual citizenship, the paper
says that it is impossible to "serve two masters." We
always thought that it wasn't citizens who served their state, but
the other way around.
Seehofer: You aren't
asking why we are opposed to dual citizenship. Instead, you are
quibbling over locution. The sentence is true and completely okay. I
am allergic to this paternalism and censorship.
SPIEGEL: In the
paper, it says that the constitution applies in Germany and not
Sharia law. Why do you insist on emphasizing something that goes
without saying?
Seehofer:
Unfortunately, that doesn't go without saying. You should conduct an
interview with security policymakers about parallel justice systems
in immigrant communities.
SPIEGEL: The
sentence suggests that there is currently a struggle underway as to
whether the constitution or Sharia applies. You are presenting it as
a larger problem than it really is.
Seehofer: The only
thing left is for you to ask: "When was the last time you
encountered somebody wearing a burqa and does that justify the debate
you are conducting?"
SPIEGEL: We mostly
encounter women wearing burqas in the expensive shopping streets of
Munich.
Seehofer: It's great
if you don't think there are any problems. The people see things
differently and they have a clear stance on burqas. As a party of the
people, we make it clear that we take people's concerns seriously.
That is our job. It's the best way to combat extremism from both the
right and the left.
SPIEGEL: Cardinal
Rainer Maria Woelki of Cologne has accused you of doing the work of
the right-wing populists.
Seehofer: I don't
understand Mr. Woelki on that point. But I would be happy to speak
with him about this misunderstanding.
SPIEGEL: The
right-wing populist AfD has three main enemies: Angela Merkel,
immigrants and the public broadcasting system. Ever since you went
after public broadcasters ARD and ZDF and demanded their
consolidation, one has the impression that the AfD's enemies are the
same as the CSU's enemies.
Seehofer: First of
all, Angela Merkel and the CDU are not our political adversaries. The
CDU and the CSU are sister parties. When it comes to ARD and ZDF, I
am interested in the question as to how they can be more efficient in
the future. They are, after all, financed by contributions from
German citizens. That is completely different than the "lying
press" accusations made by the AfD.
SPIEGEL: You have
often complained about the news coverage of the public broadcasters.
And now you want to consolidate them.
Seehofer: The focus
here is on media policy. You at SPIEGEL also talk about how you
should adjust to the changing media world. I am on the ZDF
administrative board. There are myriad structures at this broadcaster
that remind one of a government agency. I want to talk about how we
can improve programming while at the same time lowering
contributions.
SPIEGEL: You are
constantly emphasizing how dissatisfied you are with politicians in
Berlin. Would you be happy if Angela Merkel was to break Helmut
Kohl's record of 16 years as German chancellor?
Seehofer: I hold
Angela Merkel in high regard. But you won't get an answer from me to
that question.
SPIEGEL: Mr.
Seehofer, thank you for this interview.
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