Saudi
Foreign Minister: 'I Don't Think World War III Is Going To Happen in
Syria'
Interview Conducted By Samiha
Shafy and Bernhard Zand
February 19, 2016 – 06:32 PM
In
an interview, Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir expresses
his continued support for regime change in Syria and his desire for
rebels to be supplied with anti-aircraft missiles that could shift
the balance of power in the war.
The wait for the
interview with the minister takes six hours, but then he greets the
journalists in a large conference room in a grand hotel in Munich.
Adel al-Jubeir, 54, a slim, amiable man, wears a traditional robe and
looks a bit fatigued. He and his counterparts spent the previous
evening negotiating a cease-fire in Syria well into the night. And
since early this morning, they have been busily discussing current
global events. Al-Jubeir is the embodiment of a new breed of top
Saudi Arabian leaders: He went to school in Germany and college in
the United States and then served as the Saudi ambassador to
Washington. In contrast to his longtime predecessor Prince Saud
al-Faisal, who served as the country's top diplomat for decades
stretching from the oil crisis in the 1970s until early 2015,
al-Jubeir is not a member of the royal family. At the time of his
appointment as foreign minister last April, Saudi Arabia had just
gone to war with neighboring Yemen and the situation in Syria was
escalating. Al-Jubeir is now responsible for representing his
country's controversial foreign policy. And he allowed himself plenty
of time to do so in this interview with SPIEGEL. When his staff
sought to end the interview after 45 minutes because he had a speech
to give at the Munich Security Conference, al-Jubeir suggested we
continue the discussion in his limousine -- both on the way to his
talk and back to the hotel afterward.
SPIEGEL: Mr.
al-Jubeir, have you ever seen the Middle East in worse shape than it
is in today?
Al-Jubeir: The
Middle East has gone through periods of turmoil before. In the 1950s
and 1960s, there were revolutions. When monarchies were collapsing in
a number of countries, we had radicals and we had Nasserism. Today
it's a little bit more complicated.
SPIEGEL: The most
complicated and dangerous situation, obviously, is the one in Syria.
What does Saudi Arabia want to achieve in this conflict?
Al-Jubeir: I don't
think anyone can predict what the short term will look like. In the
long term, it will be a Syria without Bashar Assad. The longer it
takes, the worse it will get. We warned when the crisis began in 2011
that unless it was resolved quickly, the country would be destroyed.
Unfortunately, our warnings are coming true.
SPIEGEL: What do you
want to do now that the Assad regime has gained the upper hand?
Al-Jubeir: We have
always said there are two ways to resolve Syria, and both will end up
with the same result: a Syria without Bashar Assad. There is a
political process which we are trying to achieve through what is
called the Vienna Group. That involves the establishment of a
governing council, which is to take power away from Bashar Assad, to
write a constitution and to open the way for elections. It is
important that Bashar leaves in the beginning, not at the end of the
process. This will make the transition happen with less death and
destruction.
SPIEGEL: And the
other option?
Al-Jubeir: The other
option is that the war will continue and Bashar Assad will be
defeated. If, as we decided in Munich, there will be a cessation of
hostilities and humanitarian assistance can flow into Syria -- then
this will open the door for the beginning of the political transition
process. We are at a very delicate juncture, and it may not work, but
we have to try it. Should the political process not work, there is
always the other approach.
SPIEGEL: Assad has
said he considers a short-term cease-fire in Syria to be impossible.
Has the Munich agreement failed already?
Al-Jubeir: Bashar
Assad has said many things. We will see in the near term whether he
is serious about a political process.
SPIEGEL: Russian
Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev spoke of the danger of "World War
III" at the Munich Security Conference.
Al-Jubeir: I think
this is an over-dramatization. Let's not forget: This all began when
you had eight- and nine-year-old children writing graffiti on walls.
Their parents were told: "You will never see them again. If you
want to have children, go to your wife and make new ones."
Assad's people rebelled. He crushed them brutally. But his military
could not protect him. So he asked the Iranians to come in and help.
Iran sent its Revolutionary Guards into Syria, they brought in Shia
militias, Hezbollah from Lebanon, militias from Iraq, Pakistan,
Afghanistan, all Shia, and they couldn't help. Then he brought in
Russia, and Russia will not save him. At the same time, we have a war
against Daesh (the Islamic State, or IS) in Syria. A coalition that
was led by the United States, with Saudi Arabia being one of the
first members of that coalition.
SPIEGEL: You've just
named all the actors. Is that not already a world war of sorts?
Al-Jubeir: I will
get to this in a second, if you allow me. The air campaign started,
but it became very obvious that there may have to be a ground
component. Saudi Arabia has said that if the US-led coalition against
Daesh is prepared to engage in ground operations, we will be prepared
to participate with special forces. The Russians say their objective
is to defeat Daesh, too. If the deployment of ground troops helps in
the fight against Daesh, why is that World War III? Is Russia worried
that defeating Daesh will open the door for defeating Bashar Assad?
That would be a different story. But I don't think World War III is
going to happen in Syria.
SPIEGEL: Would Saudi
Arabian ground troops only battle Islamic State or would you also
join the fight against Assad?
Al-Jubeir: We
expressed our readiness to join the US-led, international coalition
against Daesh with special forces. All of this, however, is still in
the discussion phase and in the initial planning phase.
SPIEGEL: Is Saudi
Arabia in favor of supplying anti-aircraft missiles to the rebels?
Al-Jubeir: Yes. We
believe that introducing surface-to-air missiles in Syria is going to
change the balance of power on the ground. It will allow the moderate
opposition to be able to neutralize the helicopters and aircraft that
are dropping chemicals and have been carpet-bombing them, just like
surface-to-air missiles in Afghanistan were able to change the
balance of power there. This has to be studied very carefully,
however, because you don't want such weapons to fall into the wrong
hands.
SPIEGEL: Into the
hands of Islamic State.
Al-Jubeir: This is a
decision that the international coalition will have to make. This is
not Saudi Arabia's decision.
SPIEGEL: The Russian
intervention has had a big impact on the situation in Syria. How
would you describe Saudi Arabia's relationship with Russia at this
point?
Al-Jubeir: Other
than our disagreement over Syria, I would say our relationship with
Russia is very good and we are seeking to broaden and deepen it.
Twenty million Russians are Muslims. Like Russia, we have an interest
in fighting radicalism and extremism. We both have an interest in
stable energy markets. Even the disagreement over Syria is more of a
tactical one than a strategic one. We both want a unified Syria that
is stable in which all Syrians enjoy equal rights.
SPIEGEL: That sounds
well and good, but you are also providing support to the opposing
camp in a war. Even more than your relationship with Russia, the
world is worried about the deep schism between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Al-Jubeir : Iran has
been a neighbor for millenia, and will continue to be a neighbor for
millenia. We have no issue with seeking to develop the best terms we
can with Iran. But after the revolution of 1979, Iran embarked on a
policy of sectarianism. Iran began a policy of expanding its
revolution, of interfering with the affairs of its neighbors, a
policy of assassinating diplomats and of attacking embassies. Iran is
responsible for a number of terrorist attacks in the Kingdom, it is
responsible for smuggling explosives and drugs into Saudi Arabia. And
Iran is responsible for setting up sectarian militias in Iraq,
Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen, whose objective is to destabilize
those countries.
SPIEGEL: If all this
is the case, then how can you possibly establish "the best terms
you can" with Iran?
Al-Jubeir: Yes, we
want to have good ties with the Iranians, but if they want good ties
with us, then I tell them: Don't keep attacking us as you have done
for the last 35 years. As long as Iran's aggressive policies
continue, it's going to be bad for the region. Iran has to decide
whether it wants a revolution or a nation-state.
SPIEGEL: Are the
Iranians the only ones to blame? What can Saudi Arabia offer to
improve this vital relationship?
Al-Jubeir: Show me
one Iranian diplomat we killed! I can show you many Saudi diplomats
who were killed by Iran. Show me one Iranian embassy that was
attacked by Saudi Arabia. Show me one terrorist cell that we planted
in Iran. Show me one activity by Saudi Arabia to create problems
among Iranian minorities.
SPIEGEL: Your
Iranian counterpart, Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif, accused
Saudi Arabia of provoking Iran by actively sponsoring violent
extremist groups.
Al-Jubeir: What's
the provocation that he's talking about?
SPIEGEL: Is Saudi
Arabia not financing extremist groups? Zarif speaks of attacks by
al-Qaida, the Syrian al-Nusra and other groups -- of attacks on
Shiite mosques from Iraq to Yemen.
Al-Jubeir: Yes, but
that's not us. We don't tolerate terrorism. We go after the
terrorists and those who support them and those who justify their
actions. Our record has been very clear, contrary to their record.
They harbor al-Qaida leaders. They facilitate al-Qaida operations.
They complain about Daesh, but Iran is the only country around the
negotiating table that has not been attacked by either al-Qaida or
Daesh.
SPIEGEL: Can the
West play a role in mediating between Saudi Arabia and Iran,
following the example of the Commission on Security and Cooperation
in Europe, the organization which helped end the Cold War?
Al-Jubeir: The
Iranians know what they need to do in order to become a responsible
member of the international community and in order to become a good
neighbor, and it's really up to them to change their behavior.
SPIEGEL: So there is
nothing that Saudi Arabia itself or the West could do to encourage
this process?
Al-Jubeir: There is
nothing to encourage. The Iranians should just stay away from us.
SPIEGEL: How do you
explain the ideological closeness between the Wahhabi faith in Saudi
Arabia and Islamic State's ideology? How do you explain that Daesh
applies, with slight differences, the same draconian punishments that
the Saudi judiciary does?
Al-Jubeir: This is
an oversimplification which doesn't make sense. Daesh is attacking
us. Their leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, wants to destroy the Saudi
state. These people are criminals. They're psychopaths. Daesh members
wear shoes. Does this mean everybody who wears shoes is Daesh?
SPIEGEL: Are you
contesting the similarities between the extremely conservative
interpretation of Islam in Saudi Arabia and Islamic State's religious
ideology?
Al-Jubeir: ISIS is
as much an Islamic organization as the KKK in America is a Christian
organization. They burned people of African descent on the cross, and
they said they're doing it in the name of Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, in every religion there are people who pervert the
faith. We should not take the actions of psychopaths and paint them
as being representative of the whole religion.
SPIEGEL: Doesn't
Saudi Arabia have to do a lot more to distance itself from ISIS and
its ideology?
Al-Jubeir: It seems
people don't read or listen. Our scholars and our media have been
very outspoken. We were the first country in the world to hold a
national public awareness campaign against extremism and terrorism.
Why would we not want to fight an ideology whose objective is to kill
us?
SPIEGEL: At the same
time, your judges mete out sentences that shock the world. The
blogger Raif Badawi has been sentenced to prison and 1,000 lashes. On
Jan. 2, 47 men were beheaded, among them Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr. His
nephew Ali has been sentenced to death as well and his body is to be
crucified after the execution.
Al-Jubeir: We have a
legal system, and we have a penal code. We have the death penalty in
Saudi Arabia, and people should respect this. You don't have the
death penalty, and we respect that.
SPIEGEL: Should we
respect the flogging of people?
Al-Jubeir: Just like
we respect your legal system, you should respect our legal system.
You cannot impose your values on us, otherwise the world will become
the law of the jungle. Every society decides what its laws are, and
it's the people who make decisions with regards to these laws. You
cannot lecture another people about what you think is right or wrong
based on your value system unless you're willing to accept others
imposing their value system on you.
SPIEGEL: Is it even
compatible with human rights to display the body of an executed
person?
Al-Jubeir: This is a
judgment call. We have a legal system, and this is not something that
happens all the time. We have capital punishment. America has capital
punishment. Iran has capital punishment. Iran hangs people and leaves
their bodies hanging on cranes. Iran put to death more than a
thousand people last year. I don't see you reporting on it.
SPIEGEL: We have
reported on it.
Al-Jubeir: Anyway,
Nimr al-Nimr …
SPIEGEL: … who was
executed on Jan. 2 and was the uncle of Ali al-Nimr …
Al-Jubeir: Nimr was
a terrorist, he recruited, he plotted, he financed and as a
consequence of his actions a number of Saudi Arabian police were
killed. Are we supposed to put him on a pedestal? He was put on
trial. His trial was reviewed at the appellate level. It went to the
supreme court, and the sentence was death, like the other 46 people
who were put to death.
SPIEGEL: Your
foreign policy has become more aggressive as well. According to the
United Nations, about 6,000 people have been killed in Yemen since
the beginning of the Saudi Arabian offensive in March 2015. What do
you want to achieve with this war?
Al-Jubeir: The war
in Yemen is not a war that we wanted. We had no other option -- there
was a radical militia allied with Iran and Hezbollah that took over
the country. It was in possession of heavy weapons, ballistic
missiles and even an air force. Should we stand by idly while this
happens at our doorstep, in one of the countries in which al-Qaida
has a huge presence? So we responded, as part of a coalition, at the
request of the legitimate government of Yemen, and we stepped in to
support them. We have removed, to a large extent, the threat that
these weapons posed to Saudi Arabia. Now 75 percent of Yemen has been
liberated and is under the control of the government forces.
Yemeni men inspect
the damage at the site of a Saudi-led coalition air strike which hit
a sewing workshop in the capital Sanaa, on Feb. 14, 2016.Zoom
AFP
Yemeni men inspect
the damage at the site of a Saudi-led coalition air strike which hit
a sewing workshop in the capital Sanaa, on Feb. 14, 2016.
SPIEGEL: For how
long is this supposed to continue? Half of the victims in this war
have been civilians.
Al-Jubeir: We will
continue the operation until the objective is achieved. We hope that
the Houthis and Saleh will agree to a political settlement, and we
are prepared, along with our Gulf allies, to put in place a very
substantial reconstruction plan for Yemen. We have no interest in
seeing an unstable Yemen or seeing a Yemen that is devastated.
SPIEGEL: With
several interventions in Yemen, Syria and other countries in the
region, it appears that Saudi Arabia is aspiring to become the Middle
East's hegemonial power. Isn't your country punching above its
weight?
Al-Jubeir: We are
not seeking this role for Saudi Arabia. What we want is stability and
security so we can focus on our own development. But we have these
problems in our region, and nobody has been able to resolve them. The
whole world was saying that the countries of the regions should step
up and resolve their problems, so we stepped up. Now people are
saying, "Oh my God, Saudi Arabia has changed." It's a
contradiction. Do you want us to lead, or do you want us to play a
supporting role? Because we can't do both. If you want us to lead,
don't criticize us. And if you want us to play a supporting role,
then tell us who is going to lead.
SPIEGEL: Does Saudi
Arabia feel threatened by the Iranian nuclear deal, by a possible
rapprochement between your hostile neighbor and your closest ally in
the West, the United States?
Al-Jubeir: We
support any deal that denies Iran nuclear weapons, that has a
continuous and robust inspection mechanism and that has snap-back
provisions in case Iran violates the agreement. Our concern is that
Iran will use the income it receives as a result of the lifting of
the nuclear sanctions in order to fund its nefarious activities in
the region.
SPIEGEL: The United
States' foreign policy in the Middle East has become more restrained
under President Obama. Is that a mistake?
Al-Jubeir: I don't
believe in the theory that the United States is reducing its presence
in the Middle East. Quite the contrary, in the Gulf, we see an
increase in American military presence, as well as an increase in
American investments. The argument is more accurate when one says
America is focusing more attention to the Far East. But I don't
believe it comes at the expense of the Middle East.
SPIEGEL: Your
Excellency, we thank you for this interview.
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