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Eastern states push back at rule of law conditions on funds
By ESZTER ZALAN
BRUSSELS, 20. FEB, 18:24
Central and eastern European member states are pushing back against the
idea of making EU funds conditional on respect for the rule of law and
independence of the judiciary.
"I see enormous problems related to the implementation of that
political concept, it could lead to the limitation of member states' rights
guarded by the treaty," Poland's EU affairs minister Konrad Szymanski told
reporters on Monday (19 February) in Brussels.
"We need to see the legal text, not only the political idea,"
he added.
The issue of so-called 'conditionality' is expected to be one of the
political hot potatoes at the EU leaders' summit this Friday (23 February).
Some member states, such as Italy and Germany, are losing patience with
countries - notably Poland and Hungary - which are the largest recipients of EU
funds and had several bruising clashes with the EU commission over democratic
values and rule of law.
Central and eastern European countries have also refused to take part in
an EU migrant relocation scheme, and some have neglected rulings by the
European Court of Justice (ECJ) - further irking net contributors to the
budget.
One senior EU source said: "There is already an implicit conditionality
in the process: you have to take the common rules, or you don't get money, this
is about being a community. The debate is around whether we should make that
conditionality explicit."
Diplomats insist a key issue is what will be the legal basis for such a
conditionality and who will be trusted enough by member states to make an
assessment an whether a country adheres to EU rules.
"If you want to assess something, you have to have objective
measures," Szymanski said, pointing out that the macroeconomic
conditionality for EU funds is easier to asses.
The Pole also wondered which would be a "legitimate
institution" to make such a conclusive assessment with "huge
consequences".
Diplomats from possibly targeted countries argue that the notion is
"totally politically motivated", because it suggests linking respect
of rule of law specifically to cohesion funds, crucial for poorer countries
like Hungary and Poland, which have had serious run-ins with the EU executive.
Some argue instead that conditionality should apply to all EU countries,
and suggest that the assessment should not be done by the European Commission,
but another organisation or through peer-review.
"It should not only concern cohesion policy," said one
diplomat, adding, "we need an objective framkework that is applied to
everybody."
Others argue it should not focus on sanctions, but rather funds should
be used to make judiciaries more independent and more effective.
Legal basis
The commission is drawing up the legal basis for what is possible and
wants to hear from leaders at Friday's summit.
"It is … the moment to consider how the link between EU funding and
the respect for the EU's fundamental values can be strengthened," it said
in a statement last week.
The detailed criteria is only expected when the commission rolls out its
proposals for the next seven-year EU budget on 2 May.
"We are working together with the commission's legal service to
come up with different possible drafts for legislations that will lead to a
general debate in the commission, and then within the proposal we will put it
forward on 2 May," budget commissioner Guenther Oettinger said last week.
Justice commissioner Vera Jourova said recently the commission wants a
"sound legal basis and a clear triggering mechanism".
"This will not be aimed at any member state," she pledged.
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Interview
with Poland's Prime Minister
'Europe Has
Run Out of Gas'
In an
interview, new Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki discusses his country's
reputation problems, EU proceedings against Warsaw, Poland's controversial
refugee policy and the heated debate over history.
Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki
Piotr Malecki / DER SPIEGEL
February
20, 2018 11:15 AM Print
DER
SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, since your party, Law and Justice (PiS), has been
in power in Warsaw, Poland has suffered from a bad image. It used to be the
model pupil among the new European Union member states, but now it is
considered un-democratic, nationalistic and quick-tempered. What happened?
Morawiecki:
Those are opinions and not facts. Poland is a democratic nation-state like all
the other countries of Europe. And we are pragmatic. We have a problem with a
part of the European political elite and with journalists, but not with the
normal people. For example, 97 percent of all foreign investors would come to
us again. You are right, though, that we need to make a greater effort to
explain our policies. We are facing major changes in Poland. Now, we would like
to see the majority of our population benefit from our economic growth. Just
because foreign observers used to praise Poland does not mean that the policies
of the time were also good for the majority of the population.
DER
SPIEGEL: But Poland isn't being criticized for its social policies or its
administrative reforms. It is being criticized because your judicial reform, in
the EU's view, violates the principle of the rule of law. That's why your
country is facing EU proceedings that could end with the loss of voting rights
in Brussels.
Morawiecki:
We consider this allegation to be false. According to polls, three-quarters of
Poles consider the judiciary to be "bad" or "very bad." We
are now improving our communication and have revived the dialogue with the
European Commission. We have already achieved improvements and Brussels is now
acting more as a partner and less as a schoolmaster. We will also attempt to
address the concerns point by point and clarify our position.
DER
SPIEGEL: The fact that your country has become the first in the history of the
European Union to be subjected to such proceedings is not just due to
communications shortcomings. The accusation is that your party wants to control
the staffing of the courts.
Morawiecki:
We, meaning Poland and the Commission, are absolutely united about the fact
that the condition of the Polish justice system is a millstone around our neck.
Our courts are completely ineffective, they take a lot of time to reach
decisions and they are not transparent. Poland spends three times more on its
judges than the average among EU countries. We have 10,000 judges compared to
7,000 in France, a much bigger country. Does Poland want to control the
staffing of the courts? No, Poland wants to once again place its judiciary
under democratic controls. In Germany, for example, the justices of the highest
courts are appointed by a committee for the election of judges. Half of that
body is comprised of ministers from the states and the others are members of
the Bundestag (the German federal parliament). Furthermore, there was a failure
here to discharge judges who were contaminated by the communist era. In former
East Germany, after being screened by the Gauck Agency (the Stasi records
agency), only 58 percent of the judges and prosecutors could keep their jobs.
In Poland, it was 100 percent.
DER
SPIEGEL: That was at least 25 years ago. How many of them are even still in
office?
Morawiecki:
As a young activist with the Solidarity union, I experienced repression myself.
And a few of these judges who convicted my comrades-in-arms are still sitting
in the highest court. Our reforms make the judicial apparatus more transparent,
effective and independent. We now have random assignment of cases to courts in
order to minimize suspicions of partiality. We will explain that, and it will
hopefully provide the basis for working out a compromise.
DER
SPIEGEL: Poland appears in many respects to be removing itself from the core of
Europe. The term a "Europe of Nations" is used in your party. What
role does Poland want to take within the EU?
Morawiecki:
The majority of European societies want a Europe of Nations and not a
federation of the United States of Europe. The trans-Atlantic alliance and
North America's alliance with Europe are essential for peace in the world. They
guarantee democracy, freedom and prosperity. I would like to see Poland make its
contribution so that Europe and the United States continue working together
toward these goals. As part of that, we want to be a good, predictable partner
here at the eastern flank of the EU, not far from Russia.
DER
SPIEGEL: So there is no chance that Poland could leave the EU?
Morawiecki:
Correct, it is as unlikely as Germany or France leaving. Like the overwhelming
majority of Poles, I am very pro-European. We are pushing, for example, for the
development of a joint defense program. We also support working together to
close tax loopholes. At the same time, we also believe that Brussels should not
create policies that disregard the societal moods in the individual countries.
Podemos in Spain, the success of the AfD (Alternative for Germany), Le Pen and
Mélenchon in France, Five Star in Italy -- there is lava flowing beneath us,
there are massive tensions... …
DER
SPIEGEL: Do you not count PiS among this group of protest parties?
Morawiecki:
I count PiS as being among the parties that want to correct the unjust
consequences of the transformation of 1989. We are handing the opportunity for
development back to millions of Poles who were excluded by the economic boom.
As such, we are channeling discontent. People in Europe should acknowledge
that.
DER
SPIEGEL: Polls show that the overwhelming majority of Poles are still in favor
of the European Union, but also that their great euphoria for the EU has
evaporated. What caused that?
Morawiecki:
I would say that Europe has run out of gas in terms of ideals. During the
post-World War II era, this fuel was the prospect of growth and lower
unemployment. Later, it was the integration of the formerly communist
countries. People today consider that to be self-evident. Peace, the market
economy -- that worked for decades, but it is no longer enough. European
societies are making that loud and clear. They want fairness and less
inequality. I am an idealist. We have to work on new ideas for Europe. For me,
that would be things like the question of how we are going to deal with
robotization, with accelerated capitalism, with the transformation of our
working world through automation and artificial intelligence, and with
inequality, which has grown exponentially? Those are the questions of the
future, I agree with Thomas Piketty on this ...
DER
SPIEGEL: … ... the French economist and critic of
capitalism.
Morawiecki:
We have to consider whether there are European answers to these questions. We
need a new European partnership agreement.
DER
SPIEGEL: You speak of inequality. Why is it such a massive problem for a
country with 38 million people and a flourishing economy to take in a few
thousand refugees from Syria? Your government has doggedly refused to do so.
Morawiecki:
Poland is taking in refugees from the countries to the east of us, from
Ukraine.
DER
SPIEGEL: Can you really make that comparison? Ukrainians have been coming to
Poland for years -- they benefit Poland as cheap laborers and are
well-integrated.
Morawiecki:
The influx has increased five-fold since the war in Ukraine and, particularly
from the Donbass region, more and more are coming. They no longer have a roof
over their heads and they have often lost family members. This kind of refugee
is not even recognized in the West. After our interview, incidentally, I will
fly to Lebanon, where I will visit a refugee camp and take considerable
financial support along with me. There, in the Syrian border region, Poland is
providing for 20,000 refugees. Studies have shown that you can do a better job
of helping people there than here by building hospitals and schools. Of all the
countries participating in the Economic Resilience Initiative, Poland has given
the most money: 50 million euros. It is a project by the European Investment Bank
to provide local economic support in the region. I give you my word that we
want to do even more. But you also have to keep in mind that forcing intake
quotas on a sovereign nation creates societal tensions.
DER
SPIEGEL: What do you mean by forcing? The liberal government that preceded
yours agreed to the quota in Brussels in 2015.
Morawiecki:
You are right about that. But such important decisions that affect sovereignty,
the defense of borders and protection from terrorism should not simply be
pushed through via a majority votes in the European Council (the powerful EU
body that represents the member state governments) and against the reservations
in those societies. If a country is incapable of defending its borders, it
should not turn it into everybody's problem.
DER
SPIEGEL: By that, you mean Germany?
Morawiecki:
Not only. I also want to enter a dialogue on this issue. We want to provide our
contribution to refugee policies, and the problem can become significant again
at any time. If, for example, Moscow further escalates the conflict in Ukraine.
If a second Baltic Sea pipeline is built, as Germany desires, Russia will be
able to deliver gas to the West without having to rely on any pipes that go
through Ukraine. The country would then be entirely defenseless, and Russia
could advance in the east even more aggressively. It could not be ruled out
that there would suddenly be millions of refugees at the EU's eastern flank.
DER
SPIEGEL: Can you understand that many Germans consider the Polish position to
show a lack of solidarity? On the one hand, you have a Poland that profits from
money sent by Brussels. On the other hand, it doesn't want to help in an
emergency.
Morawiecki:
At best, I can halfway understand it. Even German politicians, like (Foreign
Minister) Sigmar Gabriel, for example, admit that the German economy also
benefits from the EU structural aid provided to the new member states. Some 80
percent of the money flows to German companies because they are implementing
EU-sponsored construction projects here. In Poland, we know very precisely what
solidarity means. It is an important goal, but another is domestic security and
policies that are independent and sovereign.
DER
SPIEGEL: Is Germany still the most important partner in Europe for your
government?
Morawiecki:
Yes. There are tensions every now and then -- when, for example, a radical
article is published here or there. But for me the glass is half full rather
than half empty. I have long worked in the business sector and our economic
ties are closer than ever. Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary
have together become the most important export market for Germany, more
important even than France. I want to support this development.
DER
SPIEGEL: Poland disclaimed reparations payments from Germany in 1953 for the
crimes committed during World War II. Now leading politicians in your party
want to demand damages retroactively. What is your position?
Morawiecki:
The Sejm (the Polish parliament) just agreed to do another precise calculation
of the material damages and the loss of human life. So far, the Poles have
received 1 percent of the compensation that citizens in the Western countries
or Israel have received. Yet our losses as a share of the total population were
the highest in the world.
DER
SPIEGEL: Your government introduced a law that makes it a crime to use the term
"Polish concentration camp" or statements that attribute any
complicity by the Polish nation or government in the Nazi crimes. Is the penal
code really the right way to fight historical misrepresentation and
cluelessness?
Morawiecki:
Yes. Germany and Israel also do this. You can be punished there for denying the
Holocaust or incitement. Last year alone, Polish embassies intervened 250 times
around the world because someone used the formulation "Polish death
camp." Our Supreme Court is currently giving the law another review to
determine if it contains any misleading wording.
DER
SPIEGEL: But the plan has been strongly criticized by the Israeli side.
Morawiecki:
We are explaining our position and I believe that the Israeli side is growing
more understanding toward us. We are noticing that in diplomatic discussions
and we are seeing increasingly friendly editorials in the press. Yes, we did
have thousands of "Szmalcownicy," Poles who murdered Jews or betrayed
them to the Nazis. At the same time, however, even in occupied Warsaw, hell on
earth, 90,000 Catholic Poles helped their Jewish neighbors. The Polish
underground state and the London exile government never collaborated with the
Nazis. We support precise research into our history.
DER
SPIEGEL: Most Germans understand why it is wrong to use the term "Polish
concentration camp." Isn't your reaction a bit over the top? The term is
usually used out of sloppiness and not because Germans want to relativize any
guilt. Do you believe, like many of your compatriots, that the Germans don't
want to take responsibility for the crimes of the Nazis?
Morawiecki:
The recent statements by Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Sigmar
Gabriel, who have clearly admitted German guilt, show that there is much
understanding for our position in Germany.
DER SPIEGEL:
The greatest concern of most Poles is neighboring Russia. Vladimir Putin has
clearly demonstrated his expansionist desires in Ukraine. At the same time,
U.S. foreign policy vis-à-vis Moscow has become unpredictable. Has life become
more dangerous in your region?
Morawiecki:
We have to take this threat from the east very seriously. That is why we
welcome joint defense efforts and perhaps it will even result in a joint army
someday -- within the framework of NATO.
DER
SPIEGEL: Do you feel that the European Union is watching Moscow closely enough?
Morawiecki:
No, unfortunately I do not believe so. Russia is not only playing an ominous
role in Ukraine, but also in Syria. We want to discuss the problem with the
Germans, but also, of course, with France, a nuclear power. But let's not
deceive ourselves: Although we don't know what policies the White House will
choose, we are still under the Americans' umbrella. In that sense, the Germans
are getting a free lunch -- they spend little but enjoy full protection. Of
course, I do hope that we can come to agreement with the Russians in the
future. At the moment, though, it is good to be strong militarily. That
makes understanding easier.
DER
SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, we thank you for this interview.
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