No
single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says ...
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Britons never
will be slaves."
Ameaças directas à
Soberania que podem ser interpretadas como chantagens, não parecem
ser o melhor método de apelo e estímulo à ponderação e meditação
consciente. Pelo contrário, podem despoletar o efeito exactamente
contrário ao pretendido ...
OVOODOCORVO
–--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPIEGEL
Interview with Wolfgang Schäuble: 'Britain Is a Leading Nation'
Interview Conducted
by Christiane Hoffmann and Christian Reiermann
German
Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble warns of the dangers of Brexit,
talks about the EU's crisis of confidence and considers the English
fear of the penalty kick.
SPIEGEL: Minister
Schäuble, you are the only top German politician who has travelled
to Britain to campaign for the country to remain in the EU. Why is
everyone else holding back? Is German support not welcome in Britain?
Schäuble: I also,
of course, asked myself whether it is helpful for German politicians
to be telling British voters what to do. I put the same question to
my British counterpart, George Osborne, who had asked me to talk
about the issue in London. He allayed my fears, and so I explained to
the British public why I believe that it is better for the EU and
Britain if voters decide against Brexit.
SPIEGEL: Polls show
that the outcome of the June 23 referendum is completely up in the
air. If the British vote against the EU, your project for achieving
ever closer integration in Europe will be on the verge of failure.
Schäuble: I hope
and believe that the British will ultimately decide against Brexit.
The withdrawal of Britain would be a heavy loss for Europe.
SPIEGEL: Why is it
better for the EU if the British remain? They have repeatedly
distanced themselves from the EU in recent years.
Schäuble: Britain
is one of the strongest economies in the EU, and London is Europe's
largest financial centre. Britain plays a leading role in all matters
of foreign and security policy. That is why Europe is stronger with
Britain than without it. Besides, the UK consistently advocates
market-based solutions in Brussels, which frequently makes it an ally
of the German government. And, in my view, one cannot have enough
British pragmatic rationality in Europe.
SPIEGEL: And why is
it better for the British to remain in the EU?
Schäuble: Britain
is economically very closely integrated with its European partner
countries. Were these ties to be cut, it would be a huge step
backwards for the country and would weaken it considerably. In the
era of globalisation, "splendid isolation" is not a smart
option.
SPIEGEL: But Britain
could continue to enjoy the benefits of the single market without
being an EU member, in the same way that Switzerland and Norway do.
Schäuble: That
won't work. It would require the country to abide by the rules of a
club from which it currently wants to withdraw. If the majority in
Britain opts for Brexit, that would be a decision against the single
market. In is in. Out is out. One has to respect the sovereignty of
the British people.
SPIEGEL: The OECD
and the IMF are warning that the British could see massive income and
prosperity losses in the event of Brexit. Is this fear-mongering?
Schäuble: I do
think the calculations are at least reasonable. The close economic
integration offers advantages for everyone involved, so it would be a
miracle if there were no economic drawbacks following a British
withdrawal. But I do not know whether British voters will be
convinced if international organisations weigh in too heavily on this
issue.
SPIEGEL: Your
British counterpart George Osborne warns the British will be creating
their own recession if they vote against remaining in the union. Do
you worry about the possibility of contagion?
Schäuble: If Brexit
came to pass, it would of course have negative consequences and
create risks for Britain's partner countries. But my counterparts in
the eurozone and I will do everything possible to contain these
consequences. We are preparing for all possible scenarios to limit
the risks.
SPIEGEL: What
exactly can you do?
Schäuble: The ECB
is making preparations, just as the Bank of England is. The European
commission and the governments of partner nations are also, of
course, preparing for possible scenarios. No one knows how the
markets would react on the day after a decision like this. Perhaps
nothing would happen at all because investors have already factored
everything in. If the British do actually vote to leave the EU, it
will be important to remain calm and offer the markets some
orientation on which way the road will lead. Then we would have to
say: "We now have a decision that we did not want, but let's
make the best of it". There would still be no reason for panic.
This process of separation would take a while. A withdrawal of this
magnitude does not take place overnight. It would be preceded by
lengthy negotiations. But of course everyone hopes that these
emergency scenarios will not occur at all.
SPIEGEL: The
domestic policy consequences in the UK could also be dramatic. Do you
believe Brexit would fuel renewed efforts towards Scottish
independence, because the Scots are clearly more closely aligned with
Europe than the English are?
Schäuble: The Scots
want to remain part of Europe, and a vote against their will could
reignite the push for independence. Northern Ireland is also
important. The conflict there was contained by the fact that Ireland
and Britain are both members of the EU.
SPIEGEL: As a
dedicated European, you have been particularly vehement in advocating
deeper European integration, also at the political level. What
happens if the British example catches on and other countries decide
they want less Europe or even to leave the EU?
Schäuble: That
cannot be ruled out - it is conceivable theoretically. How, for
example, would the Netherlands react, as a country that has
traditionally had very close ties to Britain? It is important for the
EU to send the message that it has understood the vote and is
prepared to learn from it.
SPIEGEL: How,
exactly?
Schäuble: In
response to Brexit, we couldn't simply call for more integration.
That would be crude, many would rightfully wonder whether we
politicians still hadn't understood. Even in the event that only a
small majority of the British voters reject a withdrawal, we would
have to see it as a wakeup call and a warning not to continue with
business as usual. Either way, we have to take a serious look at
reducing bureaucracy in Europe. And in some areas, we also need to
find our way back to the member states assuming more autonomy, as the
British are demanding.
SPIEGEL: Greater
autonomy instead of deeper integration: that would contradict
everything you have fought for in Europe to date. Which areas do you
have in mind?
Schäuble: Not at
all. A strong Europe is not a bureaucratised Europe. More autonomy
and adherence to mutually agreed-upon rules are precisely the
foundation we need. We must strengthen the EU in those areas where it
offers true added value relative to national approaches. Just look at
foreign policy or defence. What can an individual country achieve in
these areas? We need the British if Europe is to punch at its proper
weight and have a significant voice in the world.
SPIEGEL: In the
past, Britain has repeatedly blocked key decisions and obstructed
integration.
Schäuble: No,
Britain has never stood in our way. The British government has
consistently given a free hand to those countries that wanted to move
forward, on monetary union, for example. It's a little different in
foreign and security policy. This is where, compared to other EU
countries, Britain and France bear the greatest burden and make the
biggest contribution. In that area, Britain is a leading nation.
SPIEGEL:
Nevertheless, France and Germany were far more involved in the
Ukraine crisis, for example.
Schäuble: In this
particular case, I would have liked to see the British government
assume more responsibility. I always regretted the fact that only the
French president joined the chancellor in negotiating with Russian
president Vladimir Putin. The British prime minister was missing
there. But what's missing now could always come later.
SPIEGEL: Because it
is an island, Britain has always had a distanced relationship with
Europe.
Schäuble: British
policy was never centred on Britain itself, but was instead always
oriented towards Europe. Whenever anyone on the European mainland
tried to oppress other countries, the British were their most
prominent adversaries - and they tipped the balance each time. That
was true in the fight against Napoleon 200 years ago, just as it was
against Hitler 80 years ago.
SPIEGEL: Twenty
years ago, you proposed a Europe of different speeds. The goal was to
ensure that countries like Germany and France would not be slowed
down by countries less willing to integrate. Instead, we could now be
getting a Europe in which some are driving in reverse.
Schäuble: The goal
of European unification can only be achieved if everyone
participates, perhaps with exceptions in some areas. Not all
countries are part of monetary union, and not all are in the Schengen
area. But the fundamental goal should be to keep everyone on board.
SPIEGEL: How
dangerous would Brexit be for the EU? Would it fundamentally call the
union into question?
Schäuble: Europe
will also work without Britain if necessary. At some point, the
British will realise they have taken the wrong decision. And then we
will accept them back one day, if that's what they want.
SPIEGEL: The Brexit
referendum is not the only threat to Europe. In general, approval of
the EU has declined sharply. How deep is the crisis in the European
Union?
Schäuble: Europe
has grown through crises. Each crisis also presents opportunities,
and Europe has emerged stronger from each one. That will also be the
case this time. That is the way history unfolds. Just look at the
euro. Six years ago, when many member states were in turmoil, many no
longer thought the common currency had much of a future. Today Spain,
Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus have overcome the crisis, and much has
also happened in Greece. The euro is the uncontested second reserve
currency in the world, and it is stable. Europe is sometimes slow,
and it reacts sluggishly, but it is capable of finding solutions.
SPIEGEL: The refugee
crisis is not exactly a successful example.
Schäuble: But
Europe has reacted here too. We have reached an agreement with Turkey
and we will become more involved in North Africa. We also need
Britain to pitch in here. The country provides a bigger security and
defence contribution than any other member state. The story is
similar with overseas development aid. That is why Britain is, and
should remain, a valuable member of the EU.
SPIEGEL: In the
event of Brexit, Germany's dominance in the EU would further grow.
Would Germany not then have to assume even more leadership?
Schäuble: The
others are always calling for German leadership, but we are
criticised as soon as it is exercised. One country alone cannot lead
Europe, especially not Germany. We need France, and we need a
stronger, more committed Poland. The EU is far better balanced with
Britain than without it. And the more Britain gets involved, the
better Europe works.
SPIEGEL: To what
extent is the anti-EU sentiment in Britain also an expression of
opposition to an EU dominated by Germany?
Schäuble: I do not
see that at all. The view of Germany among the British has changed
considerably. Polls show this, and you got a sense of it through the
wonderful exhibition on Germany at the British Museum. We Germans
have also made this new image possible. We have managed to convince
the world that the image it had of us no longer corresponds to
reality in 2016. The 2006 World Cup helped contribute to that change.
And people in many parts of the world will not forget the images from
Munich's central station on the day the refugees arrived.
SPIEGEL: But it was
precisely Merkel's refugee policy that was perceived in Europe as
Germany acting unilaterally.
Schäuble: It was
and is right to insist that the principle of open borders in Europe
should not be abandoned. Just as it is incorrect to assume that this
problem can be solved simply by implementing better controls on
Europe's external borders and by working together with Europe's
neighbouring countries. The agreement with Turkey is necessary. But
the refugee crisis requires greater solidarity within Europe. Other
Europeans have nothing to reproach us Germans for. In fact, the
others have some catching up to do.
SPIEGEL: But the
dispute and the bickering in the refugee crisis and the euro crisis
are also examples of how the EU does not always present itself in the
best light. Is this why many people develop resentment towards the
EU?
Schäuble: There are
people in the member states who are using this to stir up resentment
against European integration. Faced with the uncertainty of the
modern world and the immensity of globalisation, they feel the need
to take refuge in the things they know best. But that is the wrong
response to globalisation. Nobody is going to bring back the good old
days. We need an awareness that openness is good for us, and that it
is our future.
SPIEGEL: On this
issue, we see divided societies all across Europe: in Austria,
France, Britain, Hungary and Poland. How certain are you that
countries like Hungary and Poland still even share our common
European values?
Schäuble: European
values have great appeal and are shared by the overwhelming majority
of Poles. For Poland, in particular, European values were the driving
force that ultimately achieved something that we Germans thought was
impossible: the fall of the Berlin Wall. We are now experiencing a
setback, but I am optimistic. Poland is not lost yet. The Polish
government is responding to pressure from Brussels. Europe matters.
SPIEGEL: On the
other hand, we see that countries at Europe's periphery are
increasingly turning away from European values, like Russia, Turkey
...
Schäuble: I believe
European values are attractive if people are allowed to choose. We
see this in China, in Latin America, in the Arab world and in Russia,
too. Unfortunately, we are not as convincing as we would like to be
when it comes to proving that we stand behind our own values. But
that is part of the European recognition that humankind is imperfect,
even Europeans.
SPIEGEL: No matter
how the referendum goes on June 23, Britain will be a divided
country.
Schäuble: What do
you mean by divided? Democracy is based on the right to have
different opinions. Once the British have made their decision on June
23, they will accept it together. They are proven democrats and they
do not need any tutoring from Germany.
SPIEGEL: You have
used extremely rational arguments when discussing your opposition to
Brexit. But as a native of the Baden region on the French border, you
have an emotional and very personal relationship with France. Does
your heart also beat for Britain?
Schäuble: I have
always greatly admired and respected Britain. Its contributions,
especially those of Winston Churchill, to European and to German
history are remarkable. London is an impressive city and the scenery
in many parts of Britain is breathtaking. But that does not mean that
everything is great. I certainly appreciate French cuisine more than
British food. And (laughing) the British aren't the best at
penalties, either, are they?
SPIEGEL: Minister
Schäuble, we thank you for this interview.
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