Former Aide
Scaramucci
Trump "Is an Orange Wrecking Ball"
Anthony Scaramucci was Donald Trump's head of
communications for 11 days and a Republican for decades. In an interview with
DER SPIEGEL, he explains his break with the current administration, his
accusations against the lame duck president and the enormous tasks Joe Biden
faces.
Interview
Conducted By Tim Bartz
08.11.2020,
14.30 Uhr
Anthony Scaramucci: "Bullies like Trump are very
difficult to get rid of."
Anthony
Scaramucci, a self-made millionaire from New York and a permanent guest on
American television who is also known as "the Mooch,” served as Donald
Trump's head of communications for 11 days and has voted for Republicans all
his life, except this year. In an interview with DER SPIEGEL, Scaramucci
compares the incumbent U.S. president with the greatest criminal of the 20th
century, speaks candidly about getting fired from the White House, and
discusses his vision for the future of the Republican Party and what the
business world will expect from Joe Biden.
DER
SPIEGEL: Mr. Scaramucci, Joe Biden is the winner of the presidential election,
but Donald Trump refuses to concede defeat. What is going on?
Scaramucci:
He is acting like a demagogue. Bullies like Trump are very difficult to get rid
of. And they can make others do things that are not right. You in Germany have
had your own experience with this. Are you familiar with the Milgram
experiment?
About
Anthony Scaramucci
Anthony
Scaramucci, 56, is from New York. Scaramucci, the son of a construction worker,
is the father of five children and has been married twice. As a lawyer, he
first worked at investment banks like Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs before
founding the hedge fund Skybridge in 2005. He first became known around the
world after his appointment by Donald Trump as the White House director of
communications -- a position from which the president would fire him only 11
days later. Scaramucci had made disparaging remarks about a fellow Republican
to a reporter. Later, he distanced himself entirely from Trump's politics and
gave his backing to Joe Biden in the 2020 presidential campaign.
DER
SPIEGEL: It investigated the extent to which people follow an authoritarian
leader, even if their conscience rejects it.
Scaramucci:
That pretty much describes what we are experiencing right now. Trump shows
abnormal behavior. He instructs his people to do things that are outside the
norm that we have known for 244 years. The press conference (in which Trump
spoke of election fraud) was one of the most reprehensible things I have ever
seen in American politics. There is no evidence of electoral fraud. The last
politician who refused to accept an election result was the Iranian
presidential candidate (Hossein Mousavi) in 2009. So, you can see where we have
ended up.
DER
SPIEGEL: Will Trump voluntarily leave the White House?
Scaramucci:
He still denies the situation he is in. But as his wounds heal, he will realize
that he is facing legal difficulties. He has a problem with Deutsche Bank,
which reclaims loans, and there are allegations of rape and criminal
investigations against the Trump Organization and him personally. He has
overstated his assets because he wanted to get loans. And he has declared his
income too low to lower his taxes. I think he will leave voluntarily because he
will still need Biden.
DER
SPIEGEL: As president, Biden could pardon him.
Scaramucci:
I do believe Trump is innocent. But he deserves a few days in court. All in
all, he should consider what's better for him and his family. He can, of
course, continue to torch everything around him. This is reminiscent of German
history and Adolf Hitler, who in April 1945 ordered his generals to destroy the
power supply around Berlin and said: "If we can't have a thousand-year
Reich under my rule, I want everything destroyed!” That is classic nihilism.
DER SPIEGEL:
Is there anyone in the Republican Party who can stop Trump?
Scaramucci:
Trump has taken the party hostage. His son-in-law Jared Kushner openly calls
this a hostile takeover. That this is true is evident from the fact that there
was no election platform at all. What counts is what Trump wants. That is a
perversion of the Republican idea. And there are really disgusting Republicans
like party leader Ronna Romney McDaniel, (former U.S. Ambassador to Germany)
Richard Grenell or (conservative lobbyist) Matt Schlapp. They do dirty things,
like insane people in brown shirts.
DER
SPIEGEL: Those are harsh words.
Scaramucci:
It's all sad. Look at post-war Germany and your Basic Law. The highest maxim
there is human rights. Your judicial system has ensured that they are
respected. It is now up to the Americans, who love their country, to make sure
that we abide by the principles that are threatened by Trump.
DER
SPIEGEL: Trump was elected by more than 70 million Americans, significantly
more than in 2016.
Scaramucci:
That was a protest vote against the elite and the media and says more about the
voters than about Trump. These people no longer believe that the system serves
them. They voted for Trump again, even though he is an orange wrecking ball. I
know what I am talking about. I am the product of a classic working-class
family.
DER
SPIEGEL: Can you tell me more about that?
Scaramucci:
We weren't poor, my father had a good income, but I had to share a room and the
bicycle with my brother. Today, with the same job, my father probably could not
maintain that standard of living -- too much has changed for that. Wages have
fallen due to globalization and technological progress. I understand Trump's
voters. They are not racists or mentally challenged, but they say: "I
don't like the system anymore. I want to send a message and vote for Trump.
DER
SPIEGEL: That was already the case in 2016. Could it be that the American
dream, according to which social advancement is open to everyone, is history?
Scaramucci:
Yes, that could be. Because politicians are constantly verbally attacking each
other on television instead of developing ideas about what society should look
like in five or 10 years. We have had all that before. In 1890, the journalist
Jacob Riis wrote "How the Other Half Lives," a book about living
conditions in New York at the time. He described how immigrants were exploited.
Teddy Roosevelt (who served as president from 1901 to 1909) had a great
influence on this book. He was one of the fathers of political progressivism
and raised living standards for lower- and middle-income groups. We need
something like that again, otherwise the radical left will take over.
DER
SPIEGEL: What does that mean for the future of the Republican Party?
Scaramucci:
I fear that the Republicans will become even more like Trump. People like Marco
Rubio or Tom Cotton have the potential to do so.
DER
SPIEGEL: What about you? You are not a politician, you are in the public eye,
you are a Republican and could help.
Scaramucci:
The party leadership doesn't like me, but my message would be: Open up the
party, make the party look more like the colorful mosaic of the American
people. If that is what they want, I could help. But if they stick to their
xenophobic, racist attitudes and prefer to suppress voters in order to maintain
their power rather than to develop ideas, I cannot help. And they would not
want my help at all.
DER
SPIEGEL: Are you still offended because Trump fired you after only 11 days as
spokesman?
Scaramucci:
No, I was fired. Then my family and I were attacked hard. But I am a big boy
and I can take it. At this point, however, we need to talk briefly about Steve
Bannon …
DER
SPIEGEL: … a former Trump consultant, who is currently fantasizing about beheading
FBI boss Christopher Wray and immunologist Anthony Fauci.
Scaramucci:
I got kicked out because I confidentially told a reporter that Bannon was a guy
who sucks his own dick, OK? The reporter then published that, and I was fired.
My mistake, I shouldn't have said that. People can say all kinds of shit about
me, but I'm always honest. And we should be happy that I helped get Bannon
fired after me. Imagine if that maniac and Trump were sitting together in the
White House right now!
DER
SPIEGEL: Back to the here and now. What does the new government need to do?
Scaramucci:
Give lower- and middle-income groups more hope again, then populism will
decline again. Just like in post-war Germany.
DER
SPIEGEL: You say that radical leftists could take the helm among the Democrats,
but to European ears, their demands sound more like social democracy than
socialism. Can Biden manage to keep the left-wing votes small in his party,
which wants to launch major welfare programs and expand the Supreme Court and
Senate to include members from Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico?
Scaramucci:
Yes, I think so. Biden has been strong enough not to leave the party to
leftists like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. This is his moment. He is 77 years old
and wants to take the lead. I believe he has the opportunity to govern in a
non-partisan way.
DER
SPIEGEL: But he doesn’t seem particularly buoyant. Does it boil down to him
acting as the conciliator and having his vice president, Kamala Harris, run the
day-to-day business?
Scaramucci:
I have no idea. I don't know how the two will work together. I know Biden well,
we were together at the World Economic Forum in Davos and fought for gay
rights. I have great respect for him and I think that he won this election
thanks to his personality. I only met Harris once, I don't know her personally.
DER
SPIEGEL: In terms of the balance of power, would it be better if the
Republicans continued to control the Senate?
Scaramucci:
Yes. You see, I am a pragmatist, not an ideologist. Biden has known Mitch
McConnell, the Republican majority leader in the Senate, for four decades, they
are friends. Maybe they can bridge the gap and together they can put together
an infrastructure program and a stimulus package that could help us get over
the consequences of the COVID pandemic.
DER
SPIEGEL: What does the business world expect from Biden? Wall Street doesn’t
seem to fear him.
Scaramucci:
I think Wall Street likes it when Congress is held by Republicans. That Trump
has to go is good for the soul; if McConnell stays, it's good for the wallet.
The Republicans could prevent the government from raising taxes. I think that's
why Wall Street is quite positive.
DER
SPIEGEL: Will the Democrats regulate the big technology companies more
strictly? Or will they not considering how "Big Tech" is one of the
Democrats' biggest donors?
Scaramucci:
I don't know, but it would be good. Monopolies hamper innovation and distort
prices. You can go back to Teddy Roosevelt (the American president from
1901-1909). He was the one who broke up big monopolies back then and thus
spurred innovation. The last big monopoly to be smashed was the telephone
company AT&T in 1984. That is where the technology of today has come from.
We need that renewal again.
DER
SPIEGEL: Big Tech would defend itself by all means.
Scaramucci:
Sure. They will say: Our technology lowers prices. But in fact, it is crushing
innovation! When you develop an app for the iPhone, Apple controls the prices
and how much commission you have to give away on sales.
DER
SPIEGEL: Trump has attacked China's trade policy and imposed tariffs on
imports. Didn’t his criticism hit the nail on the head?
Scaramucci:
Attacking the Chinese so sharply was not the best idea. Europeans also have
problems with China. Together, we could have talked to China with a trading
block of almost a billion people. But he failed to solve the problem
diplomatically. The trade agreement with China is a blatant failure, and our
deficits are now even greater. We know from history that alliances are mutually
beneficial, but Trump has denigrated democratic leaders, praised despots and
made things even more complicated.
DER
SPIEGEL: Do you believe there is a chance of reviving TTIP, the U.S.-European
free trade agreement?
Scaramucci:
That would be a good step. Controlling Chinese power is good for the interests
of the U.S. economy. By the way, that was a mistake by Hillary Clinton in 2016:
She did not stand by TTIP because she did not trust the Americans to understand
that the U.S. would have benefited from it. Instead, she responded to Trump's
simple nonsense messages and caved in.
DER
SPIEGEL: You are a patriot and a Republican, in that order. What are your
feelings now that Trump's chaotic presidency is ending?
Scaramucci:
I am simply sad. He has missed so many opportunities. He is demagogic, racist,
nationalist. Look: Until August 2019, I remained faithful to him and to the
Republican agenda, despite my expulsion. At that time, he was way ahead in
polls, his re-election seemed assured. But then it became too much for me.
DER
SPIEGEL: In what sense?
Scaramucci:
He started putting women and children into cages at the border and denying our
secret services. He calls journalists like you enemies of the people. He says
congressional women Democrats with African-American and Muslim roots should
return to the countries they come from, even though they were born in America.
At some point, I had to admit that it was a mistake to support him. My liberal
friends tell me: "Tony, he's the same guy he was 25 years ago! That's right,
today I'm smarter. But I am more aware of the pain and damage his behavior
causes.
DER
SPIEGEL: And what gives you hope?
Scaramucci:
That a large part of the world attributes all this to Trump and not to the
American people. When a golfer is allowed to repeat a failed shot with
impunity, it is called a "mulligan." I think the world will give us another four years after the
"mulligan" Trump.
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