Witkoff:
Hamas isn’t ideologically intractable, Gaza conflict can end through dialogue
In candid
podcast interview, top Trump aide indicates renewed IDF strikes may be
necessary after Hamas intransigence, says PM ‘going up against Israeli public
opinion that wants hostages back’
By Jacob
Magid Follow
22 March
2025, 12:44 pm
US special
envoy to the Mideast Steve Witkoff said Friday that he doesn’t believe Hamas is
“ideologically intractable,” while arguing that Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu is “well-motivated,” but operating against Israeli public opinion
that prioritizes freeing the remaining hostages from Gaza over the destruction
of Hamas.
In a
90-minute interview chock-full of headlines, Witkoff discussed the motivations
of Israel, Hamas and Qatar in the ongoing Gaza war, offered an assertive
defense of Doha against critics questioning the Islamist country’s motivations,
and acknowledged his concern about the Gaza war’s potential for destabilizing
countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. He also suggested that Syria’s new
leader Ahmed al-Sharaa could be a changed man since his days in Al-Qaeda,
revealed new details about his successful January brokering of the now-defunct
Gaza ceasefire’s first phase, and insisted that the Iranian nuclear threat can
be solved diplomatically.
Witkoff held
the conversation with Tucker Carlson, a right-wing talk show host who has come
under fire in American Jewish circles for hosting guests who have pushed
antisemitic claims and Holocaust revisionism. He is also known to enjoy a very
large fan base, particularly among Trump supporters.
The filmed
podcast interview began with Trump’s Mideast envoy explaining that his job
requires him to understand the motivations of the various players with whom he
engages.
“What does
Hamas want? I think they want to stay there till the end of time. They want to
rule Gaza, and that’s unacceptable. We had to know that… What they want is
unacceptable,” Witkoff said.
“What’s
acceptable to us is [that] they need to demilitarize. Then maybe they could
stay there a little bit… be involved politically,” he continued.
“But… we
can’t have a terrorist organization running Gaza because that won’t be
acceptable to Israel. Then we’ll just have the same exact experiences, that
every five, 10, 15 years we’re going to have another October 7.”
Pressed on
what it’s like negotiating with Hamas, Witkoff acknowledged that he’s not
talking to the terror group directly and that he uses Qatar as a mediator.
The US envoy
did sign off on Trump’s hostage envoy Adam Boehler holding secret direct talks
with Hamas officials earlier this year. However, Washington abandoned those
talks after they were leaked by Israel, which learned about them after the fact
and fumed over Boehler negotiating on its behalf, a senior Arab diplomat told
The Times of Israel earlier this month.
Hamas’s
motivations
While he has
worked to understand Hamas through the negotiations, Witkoff said he was also
informed by the footage compilation of the terror group’s October 7 onslaught
that Israeli authorities screened for him during his first visit to Israel upon
taking the position.
“It was
horrific. It is about mass rapes. There were pictures of Hamas people cutting
the head off of an Israeli soldier… It’s beyond what I’ve ever seen,” he
recalled.
“It can
taint the way you’re going to feel about [Hamas]. Sometimes as a negotiator,
you have to be dispassionate,” Witkoff continued. “It’s not easy to make
decisions if you’re going to [watch the film], but I had to see [it]… We can’t
ignore the reality of what happened on October 7. They would tell you that
they’ve got justification, but there’s no justification… for what happened that
day.”
Palestinian
Islamic Jihad terrorists are seen on their way to cross the Israel-Gaza border
fence from Khan Younis during the Hamas-led onslaught of October 7, 2023. (Said
Khatib/ AFP/ File)
Still,
Witkoff went back to the importance of understanding Hamas’s motivations.
“You have to
know what Hamas wants… and then you’ve got to figure out what you can give them
that allows them to walk out because that’s what’s needed here,” he said.
“What we
heard in the beginning of this conflict is Hamas is ideological, that they’re
prepared to die for a whole variety of reasons. I personally — and I talk to
the president about this… I said to him, ‘I don’t think that they are as
ideologically locked in.’ They’re not ideologically intractable… They strap the
suicide vest onto young kids who don’t know what they’re doing… They tell them
a story.”
“What we
heard in the beginning of this conflict is Hamas is ideological, that they’re
prepared to die for a whole variety of reasons. I personally — and I talk to
the president about this… I said to him, ‘I don’t think that they are as
ideologically locked in’. They’re not ideologically intractable. I never
believed that,” Witkoff maintained. “They strap the suicide vest onto young
kids who don’t know what they’re doing… They tell them a story.
“Once you
understand that [Hamas] wanted to live, then you were able to talk to them in a
more effective way,” he argued.
Pressed on
how he reached this conclusion about Hamas, Witkoff said he has read lots of US
intelligence reports and also felt “the rhythm and the cadence of the
negotiation.”
“That’s when
I came to the conclusion that they wanted alternatives,” he said.
The comments
rationalizing Hamas were somewhat similar to ones made by Boehler in a series
of interviews with American and Israeli press on March 9 that infuriated
Netanyahu and his inner circle. The premier’s top aide, Strategic Affairs
Minister Ron Dermer, went on to lobby Trump officials to sideline Boehler after
those interviews, a US official told The Times of Israel earlier this month.
Regardless,
Hamas has yet to move from its stance in the negotiations as Witkoff had hoped.
The terror
group snubbed a bridge proposal he submitted last week that would have seen
phase one of the ceasefire extended through next month’s Passover holiday,
along with the release of five live hostages and a large number of Palestinian
security prisoners.
Hamas has
insisted on sticking to the original terms of the deal Witkoff helped ink in
January, which should have seen negotiations on a second phase begin some two
weeks into the ceasefire. But Israel refused to proceed with such talks, as a
second phase would obligate the IDF to fully withdraw its troops from Gaza and
agree to a permanent end to the war.
While
Netanyahu signed on to these terms, he has also insisted that he will not agree
to end the war before Hamas’s military and governing capabilities have been
dismantled. The US accepted the Israeli stance and worked to extend the first
phase, rather than proceeding with the second.
Hamas didn’t
accept the approach and instead offered to release American-Israeli hostage
Edan Alexander along with the bodies of four other hostages with US citizenship
— an offer that was based on the discussions that the terror group held with
Boehler earlier this month, the senior Arab diplomat said. But the Trump
administration had already moved on from those direct talks, and Witkoff on
March 16 called the Hamas proposal a “non-starter.”
Two days
later, Israel resumed airstrikes in Gaza for the first time in two months under
orders from Netanyahu, who cited the terror group’s “repeated refusal” to
release hostages.
Ceasefire
can still be restored
Still,
Witkoff maintained Friday that he was hopeful the ceasefire could be restored.
“There have been signs,” he said.
“The
Israelis going in [to Gaza] is in some respects unfortunate, and in some
respects falls into the ‘had to be’ bucket.”
Witkoff
recalled warning Arab leaders during a gathering in Doha last week that Hamas’s
“completely inappropriate” response to the bridge proposal “was going to result
in some sort of military action.”
“I did not
know before the Israelis went in,” he clarified, appearing to contradict claims
by White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt earlier this week that Israel
had consulted the US before ending the Gaza ceasefire.
Nonetheless,
Witkoff insisted that “We may be able to use this to get Hamas to be a whole
lot more reasonable.”
The Trump
envoy later revealed that the sides “are talking again” since the Israeli
strikes.
“We’re in a
negotiation right now to maybe stop some of these Israeli strikes and maybe
finish this conflict with dialogue,” he said. If I don’t have a feeling that we
can accomplish that, why would I waste my time?”
For his
part, the senior Arab diplomat told The Times of Israel that the talks have
been stuck since the IDF renewed airstrikes.
Netanyahu
vs. public opinion on the hostages
The question
that Witkoff appeared to have a harder time answering focused on the Israeli
government’s plan for Gaza after the war.
Carlson
reflected on his conversations with officials throughout the region who were
all equally perplexed as to what Israel views as its end game and he asked
Witkoff if he understood it.
“Well, I
think that’s complicated,” the US envoy said before shifting his answer to
praise Netanyahu for Israel’s military achievements against Hezbollah, Hamas
and Iran.
“That
Iranian crescent… that everybody thought was going to be effective, it’s been
largely eliminated.”
The rap
[Netanyahu] gets is that he’s more concerned about the fight than he is about
the hostages… I understand how people make that assessment, but I don’t
necessarily agree with it
Netanyahu
has “done an exceptional job with that. But the rap he gets is that he’s more
concerned about the fight than he is about the hostages,” Witkoff explained.
“I
understand how people make that assessment, but I don’t necessarily agree with
it. He does want to get hostages home — if he can — but he believes that
pressuring Hamas is the only way to do it.”
“I think
Bibi feels that he’s doing the right thing. [But] I think he goes up against
public opinion… because public opinion there wants those hostages home,” he
said.
Indeed,
repeated polls over recent weeks indicate a sizable majority of the public
backs ending the war in exchange for securing the release of the remaining 59
hostages.
Witkoff
recalled his visit to Tel Aviv’s Hostages Square during his time in Israel. “It
was spiritual.”
Witkoff said
that the loss of his son to a drug overdose has given him a “sensitivity or
empathy” that has allowed him to relate to hostage families with whom he is in
daily contact. “That’s been a big help for them, but interestingly enough, it’s
been a big help for me.”
The hostage
crisis has “fractured Israel,” Witkoff maintained. “It’s like a seam cutting
right through the soul of the country.”
“We’ve got
to get these people back. I talked to Bibi about it, I talked to [Strategic
Affairs Minister Ron] Dermer about it, but they also have a view strategically
about Hamas,” he continued.
“There are
times that we agree with each other, there are times we slightly disagree, but
I think they’re well motivated,” Witkoff clarified.
Does Israel
have a plan?
Pressed
again on what Israel’s plan for Gaza, Witkoff seemed to avoid responding
directly.
“I
understand that we have to be outcome-oriented,” he said before pivoting to how
solving Iran’s destabilizing regional activities could lead to unprecedented
regional cooperation
Carlson then
tries to frame the question in terms of the map, asking how much territory
Israel is looking to conquer after reaching deep into Lebanon and Syria.
“What’s the goal?” he asks.
“The goal
begins with how do we deal with Iran. That’s the biggie,” Witkoff responded.
“We can never allow someone to have a nuclear weapon and have outsized
influence.”
Carlson
tried to steer the conversation back to Gaza, asking if the US could articulate
Israel’s approach.
“I think
so,” Witkoff said.
“First of
all, President Trump’s approach to Gaza has engendered a lot of lively
discussion about different ways to deal with Gaza,” he said, referring to
Trump’s February proposal for the US to take over the Strip and relocate
Palestinians elsewhere.
“We’re now
seeing an Egyptian plan, we’re seeing the Saudis put together a white paper,”
Witkoff said in what appeared to be the first official mention of a separate
Saudi plan for Gaza in the works.
The Egyptian
proposal was a counter to Trump’s call to relocate Gazans, instead envisioning
Palestinians being able to remain in the enclave while it is being rebuilt and
managed by a temporary committee of Palestinian technocrats who would hand over
control over the Strip to the Palestinian Authority after six months.
While it
hinted at it, the plan didn’t explicitly address the demilitarization of Hamas,
and Washington’s response has accordingly been lukewarm, at best.
Wiktoff made
no mention of Israel’s plan for Gaza, but insisted that “what we’re going to do
with Gaza is going to become much more apparent over the next six to 12
months.”
The lack of
an Israeli plan for the post-war management of Gaza has long exposed Netanyahu
to criticism. From the first weeks of the war, the previous US administration
pleaded with the premier to put together a plan for the post-war management of
Gaza, arguing that failure to advance a viable alternative to Hamas would lead
to the IDF being bogged down in the Strip indefinitely.
Netanyahu
pushed back on those calls by arguing that such planning was futile so long as
Hamas remains in the picture. Months later, he said his government was working
on plans to wrestle control of humanitarian aid from Hamas but they have yet to
be implemented.
Finally,
after Trump announced his Gaza takeover proposal, Netanyahu quickly adopted it
as Israel’s new plan for the “day after” in Gaza. But while Jerusalem has
engaged in talks with the Trump administration aimed at identifying countries
that will take Gazans, no such volunteers have emerged.
Carlson
noted Friday that despite the mounting military victories Jerusalem has
achieved over the past year, Israelis he engages with still give off the
impression that they’re under threat.
I don’t
think anyone has a feeling that you can just kill off Hamas. It’s an idea…
[but] we just can’t have an October 7 ever again. October 7 was like 9/11 in
the United States
“There’s a
feeling with some of, ‘When does the violence end? At what point have we had
enough of it? That’s the issue,” Witkoff responded.
“I don’t
think anyone has a feeling that you can just kill off Hamas. It’s an idea…
[but] we just can’t have an October 7 ever again. October 7 was like 9/11 in
the United States.”
The meaning
of ‘two-state’
Witkoff
argued that the key to getting the Abraham Accords normalization agreements
between Israel and its Arab neighbors back on track is “stability on Gaza.”
“Stability
on Gaza could mean some people come back, it could mean some people don’t come
back,” he said of Palestinians.
While Trump
initially said that Gaza’s entire population would be permanently relocated, he
clarified earlier this month that no Palestinians will be forcibly evicted.
“We’re going
to attempt to ascertain different development plans for Gaza. They could
involve the word two-state (solution). [They] could not,” Witkoff revealed.
“I use the
word, [and] I could be attacked for it. To me, it’s just a word. What two-state
to me means is how do we have a better living prescription for Palestinians who
are living in Gaza?” he said.
“But it’s
not just about housing. Maybe it’s about AI coming there. Maybe it’s about
hyper-scale data centers being seeded into that area… Maybe it’s about
blockchain and robotics coming there. Maybe it’s about pharmaceutical
manufacturing coming there,” Witkoff continued. “We can’t rebuild Gaza [for it
to again become] a welfare system.”
We need real
elections in Gaza… We need a real security force there… If Israel thinks
they’re going to have a problem in Gaza because Hamas is going to be there
long-term, this is never going to end
“We need
real elections in Gaza… We need a real security force there… If Israel thinks
they’re going to have a problem in Gaza because Hamas is going to be there
long-term, this is never going to end,” he said.
Palestinians
carry their belongings while traveling from Beit Hanoun to Jabaliya, a day
after Israel’s renewed offensive in the Gaza Strip, March 19, 2025. (AP
Photo/Jehad Alshrafi)
Potential
for regional spill-over
Alongside
his aspirations for Gaza are also concerns for regional destabilization if the
war there drags on.
“King
Abdullah in Jordan has done an amazing job figuring out how to how to deal with
that instability, but in some respects, he’s been lucky,” Witkoff said.
He warned
that the recent rollback of Iranian proxies in Syria and Lebanon “could all be
reversed if we lose Egypt.”
Pointing to
Egypt’s high youth unemployment, Witkoff said, “A country can’t exist like
that. They’re largely broke. They need a lot of help.”
Notably, the
Trump aide made no mention of Egypt’s role in mediating between Israel and
Hamas — as he has in the past — focusing solely on Qatar.
The concern
even extends to Saudi Arabia, where “people are worried about [the] young
population and how they’re looking at [the Gaza war], which is why we’ve got to
solve Gaza,” the Trump envoy argued.
“If we solve
Gaza… then Saudi can normalize,” Wiktoff said.
Riyadh has
repeatedly insisted, though, that it will not normalize relations with Israel
absent Jerusalem agreeing to a credible, irreversible pathway to a Palestinian
state, which Netanyahu has long rejected.
Still,
Witkoff said, “We’re going to be announcing several new countries who are
joining,” and separately claimed that Lebanon and Syria are potential
candidates.
People do
change. You at 55 are completely different than how you were at 35… I’m a
different person today at 68 years old. So maybe Jolani in Syria is a different
guy
“The
indications are that Jolani is a different person than he once was,” he argued,
referring to Syria’s interim leader Ahmed al-Sharaa by the nom de guerre he
held as a senior al-Qaeda operative.
“People
do change. You at 55 are completely different than how you were at 35… I’m a
different person today at 68 years old,” Witkoff said. “So maybe Jolani in
Syria is a different guy. They’ve driven Iran out.”
As for
Turkey — which is currently rocked by its unrest following the regime’s arrest
of Istanbul’s mayor and a prominent rival to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan —
Witkoff appeared similarly optimistic.
Trump “had a
great conversation with Erdogan a couple of days ago — really
transformational,” he continued. “There’s a lot of positive news coming out of
Turkey right now as a result of that conversation. You’ll see that in the
reporting in the coming days.”
In defense
of Qatar
Witkoff was
also given the opportunity to address criticism over his warm relations with
Qatar, which began before he entered the Trump administration when he was a
real estate investor.
Qatar has
been accused of supporting Hamas and other extremist factions in the region.
Doha has countered that its hosting of Hamas officials was at the request of
Israel and the US. Jerusalem and Washington also urged the Gulf kingdom to
funnel large amounts of aid to Gaza, which has come under renewed scrutiny
since October 7, with critics arguing that it allowed Hamas to amass its
military arsenal.
“The
Qataris… are criticized for not being well motivated. It’s preposterous. They
are well motivated,” Witkoff said, using the same term he used to characterize
Israel’s leadership.
The
Qataris… are good, decent people… They’re a Muslim nation. In the past, they’ve
had some views that are a little bit more radical from an Islamist standpoint
than they are today, but they… moderated quite a bit. There’s no doubt that
they’re an ally of the United States. They fund everything, [and] they don’t
ask for much
“They’re
good, decent people. What they want is a mediation that’s effective [and] that
gets to a peace goal… Because they’re a small nation, and they want to be
acknowledged as a peacemaker,” he asserted. “If they had a different agenda, it
would be fine, as long as we weren’t operating blind.”
He dismissed
as “preposterous” the criticism that the Qataris operate as agents of Iran.
“They’re a
Muslim nation. In the past, they’ve had some views that are a little bit more
radical from an Islamist standpoint than they are today, but [Qatar] has
moderated quite a bit. There’s no doubt that they’re an ally of the United
States,” he said, highlighting the US military base that Doha hosts. “They fund
everything, [and] they don’t ask for much.”
Witkoff said
he was initially criticized for being a “pro-Qatari sympathizer.”
“They’re a
mediator… No different than the Swiss and the Norwegians. They’ve mediated in
Russia. They’ve mediated in Afghanistan… they’re good at it,” he continued. “If
I’m not collaborating with the mediator, I’m bound to be ineffective.”
Intimidating
the parties
Carlson
asked Witkoff about reports — including in The Times of Israel — that he
managed to sway Netanyahu more in one fateful January meeting than Biden did in
countless interactions aimed at wrapping up the war.
“President
Trump sets the table. This whole ‘Peace through strength’ thing — it’s not just
a slogan. It actually works. When he dispatches you to go to the Middle East,
people are almost a little bit intimidated before you get there,” Witkoff
reflected.
He said
Israel, Hamas and Qatar all didn’t want to defy Trump by refusing to accept the
ceasefire. “It was the president’s overarching personality, and letting
everybody know that success was not an option. It had to be.”
“The story
was that you just kind of rolled in and said, ‘Here’s what we’re doing. Here’s
what the president wants,” Carlson primed.
“Well,
that’s what [Trump] would do. So that’s what I did,” responded a smiling
Witkoff.
What was in
Trump’s letter to Khamenei
Closing the
interview on Iran, Witkoff argued that a diplomatic resolution to mounting US
tensions with the Islamic Republic is possible.
He revealed
the general message in the letter Trump sent to Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali
Khamenei earlier this month.
“It roughly
said, ‘I’m a president of peace. That’s what I want. There’s no reason for us
to do this militarily. We should talk. We should we should clear up
misconceptions. We should create a verification program so that nobody worries
about weaponization of your nuclear material, and I’d like to get us to that
place because the alternative is not a very good alternative,'” Witkoff said.
He revealed
that Tehran has since responded to the US through intermediaries, without going
into specifics.
“The
president… doesn’t want to go to war, and he’ll use military action to stop a
war. That’s when he actually wants to use military action. In this particular
case, hopefully, it won’t be necessary,” Witkoff added, expressing his hope
that he or another Trump aide would be able to travel to Tehran for talks aimed
at a detente.
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