Italian
Foreign Minister Gentiloni: 'The Toughest Crisis in EU History'
Italy
is adament that the rest of the European Union must do its part to
solve the refugee crisis. In an interview with SPIEGEL, Foreign
Minister Paolo Gentiloni discusses his hopes for a redistribution
scheme and his concern Schengen may be doomed.
Interview Conducted
by Walter Mayr
SPIEGEL: Mr.
Minister, did Matteo Renzi and Angela Merkel just resolve a serious
conflict between the two countries during their meeting in Berlin?
Gentiloni: There are
differences of opinion, especially when it comes to economic and
financial policy. But when it comes to foreign and especially
immigration policy, we are in agreement. No other countries in Europe
are closer to each other in this regard than Italy and Germany.
SPIEGEL: But the
chancellor has changed her tone and now says that refugees need to
return home after a few years. Does that surprise you?
Gentiloni: Our
government greatly valued the chancellor's position in summer of
2015. Especially, because she is defending the Schengen rules.
SPIEGEL: Our
question was about Merkel's recent change in direction on the refugee
question.
Gentiloni: Let's put
it this way: I am confident that Schengen will continue to be
defended. And when it comes to repatriations, we have the same
opinion.
SPIEGEL: You are
also pushing for refugees to return home as soon as the conflicts in
their homelands have ended?
Gentiloni: Yes,
because we cannot treat people with a right to asylum the same way as
people from a safe country. They need to be sent back. That is, from
our perspective, completely clear. On the other hand, we should
scrutinize the now completely outdated principle that only the
migrants' first country of arrival should be burdened with their
registration as well as with the process of sorting out who has the
right to asylum and who needs to be deported.
SPIEGEL: You are
arguing for an elimination of the Dublin Regulation?
Gentiloni: It is
ridiculous to believe that Greece might be taking in one million
migrants, registering them, then giving refuge to those who have a
right to asylum and sending everyone back that does not. Greece is
not doing that. We can blame the Greeks for that, but at the same
time we should change the Dublin Regulation. When we insist on this
unrealistic procedure, it means nothing more than that we are
defending Dublin while renouncing Schengen.
SPIEGEL: Will the
Dublin procedure be changed by the EU in March?
Gentiloni: I'm not
particularly optimistic, but I hope that the lack of alternatives
will lead to it. I would like to remind you of the fact that before
May 2015 there was no overall European agenda on immigration.
Nothing, zero. It wasn't until after yet another tragedy in the
Mediterranean that, in response to an Italian initiative, (Europe)
began thinking about setting policies for the registration of
refugees, their distribution or their deportation.
SPIEGEL: So far,
though, that works almost only in theory.
Gentiloni: This is
true. In practice we are far behind when it comes to the
implementation of these principles. But it could be that we, as early
as spring, will need to embark on a new policy in order to save one
of the cornerstones of European politics: personal freedom of
movement.
SPIEGEL: You are in
favor of the redistribution of refugees to all EU countries?
Gentiloni: In 2015,
900,000 migrants came to Greece. The Dublin Agreement stipulates: All
of those with a right to asylum must stay in Greece, while the others
need to be deported from there. Impossible! This load needs to be
carried together. That means: joint border police, an EU-wide
distribution of refugees and the repatriation of those without a
right to asylum. Everyone must be made responsible for logistics and
financing.
SPIEGEL: Several EU
countries are opposed to that.
Gentiloni:
Doubtless. But joint pressure from states like Germany, Italy and
France could mean a move in this direction. Because something very
fundamental is on the line: freedom of movement. I can't think of any
common market that could function without it.
SPIEGEL: Did the
Germans stay out of the issue for too long? The Italians have been
fishing shipwrecked people out of the water with Operation "Mare
Nostrum" since 2013.
Gentiloni: Not only
the Germans. They were always present when the issues related to
asylum came up. But surely all of Europe woke up very late.
SPIEGEL: Out of
naivete or calculation?
Gentiloni: As long
as a certain problem primarily affects a different country, in this
case Italy, one might not put it at the very top of one's list of
priorities. The route for the refugees currently goes through Greece
and the Balkans or through Italy; if there were a crisis in
north-eastern Europe, Poland might just as well be affected. In this
case we are dealing with mechanisms that we do not control. We need
to change that. As Ms. Merkel has said, "We can handle it."
But this "we" should be a European "we." We can't
have a situation where everyone keeps criticizing the bouncer,
meaning Greece.
SPIEGEL: What effect
did the chancellor's refugee policies have on Italy?
Gentiloni: It had
the effect of me agreeing with her. Europe can handle several
hundreds of thousands of people every year who have a right to
asylum.
SPIEGEL: A ceiling
of about 500,000 people with a right to asylum per year has been
discussed in Berlin for some time now.
Gentiloni: And a
united Europe will also manage to send hundreds of thousands of
migrants, who don't have the right to asylum, back to their
homelands. Though that, given the number of flights necessary, would
be of a scale reminiscent of the Berlin Airlift.
SPIEGEL: Does Europe
need to be more clear that we can't take in everybody who is looking
for a better life?
Gentiloni: The
message that "we can't take in everybody" is imperative. At
the same time, the decision as to who has a right to asylum needs to
be made in Brussels. It is clear that several countries, in the
Balkans for example, need to be considered countries of safe origin.
But others like, in my opinion, Eritrea, undoubtedly need to be
considered a country of origin with a valid claim to asylum. And with
a third group of states, like Nigeria for example, each individual
case needs to be evaluated. Then there are also very controversial
cases like Afghanistan. In any case, united European action is
needed. This argument for Europeanization may sound utopian, but
there is no alternative.
SPIEGEL: So far,
Italy has built three of the six promised "hotspots" for
the registration of refugees. Thus far, they have had the reputation
for being departure points for illegal immigrants. Your authorities
have been hopelessly overwhelmed with the surge in refugees and their
redistribution.
Gentiloni: We are
not perfect. But we have doubtlessly fulfilled our obligations to the
EU to a greater degree than the EU has its obligations to Italy, when
it comes to the relocation or repatriation of refugees that are in
our country. Italy does its homework better than the rest of Europe.
Instead of the 160,000 migrants that were to be distributed across
Europe, we are currently at 300.
SPIEGEL: Do you
think the future of the EU is at risk because of the refugee crisis?
Gentiloni: You could
put it that way. Because this crisis has an effect on other things:
on the referendum of the British about their exit from the EU or on
the gains by populists in several countries. This mixture endangers
the future of Europe. We are currently experiencing probably the
toughest crisis in the history of the EU. The touchstone for whether
we can overcome it will be the subject of immigration.
SPIEGEL: What needs
to take place at the EU summit in mid-January?
Gentiloni: We need
to move forward, from the common currency to the banking union to a
common financial policy and, in the middle-term, to a common foreign
and security policy. That will take time, because we need to figure
out how to deal with those countries that don't always want a more
tightly integrated European Union.
SPIEGEL: For that
reason, you are advocating a "two-speed Europe."
Gentiloni: I don't
like that term. Because it suggests that the slower one will catch up
to the faster one. London can't live with this definition. We
probably need to move forward together, each at their own speed. The
faster ones, that could be the countries in the euro zone. The others
would be those who are interested in the continued development of the
common market, but reject the idea of an ever stronger political
integration.
SPIEGEL: Italian
Prime Minister Renzi has been critical of Merkel and French President
François Hollande determining the direction taken by the EU. You
have also said that you hoped that Berlin was continuing to emphasize
a European Germany rather than a German Europe. Where is the problem?
Gentiloni: The
problem is, if at all, in the different view of the economy, of
economic growth. Growth is too low, even for us. That needs to
change: More investments, a stronger role by the European Central
Bank. Otherwise, there are no tensions between Italy and Germany. But
on this point, compromises must be reached and we will reach them.
SPIEGEL: Matteo
Renzi has recently made it extremely clear that he does not want to
be lectured by Berlin and Brussels. What did you think of that?
Gentiloni: On this
point, I believe that Renzi is right.
SPIEGEL: You have
just spoken with the American Secretary of State about the fight
against Islamic State (IS). Jihadists belonging to the terror group
are now just 600 kilometers south of the Italian coast. What is your
government's strategy?
Gentiloni: We have a
strong military deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. In countries like
Syria, we need a diplomatic breakthrough to end the war. In Libya,
the country must first of all be stabilized to stop IS. This means
supporting the Libyan government, including in terms of security. We
don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past in that country. The
situation is extremely dangerous and the next days could be decisive.
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