German
Interior Minister on Refugee Crisis: 'We Want Clarity on the Refugee
Crisis by Spring'
Interview
Conducted by Ralf Neukirch and René Pfister
In
an interview, German Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière, 62, warns
that the government in Berlin only has a few weeks left to solve the
refugee problem. He fears that Europe's open-border policies may soon
end if a solution isn't found.
SPIEGEL: Interior
Minister de Maizière, the state of Bavaria has written to Chancellor
Merkel demanding that she change her refugee policies, there is
protest among German conservatives and now the deputy chair of her
own Christian Democratic Union (CDU) has come up with her own plan to
stymie the flow of refugees to Germany. Is it time to concede that
the chancellor's Plan A has failed?
De Maizière: No.
Coping with the refugee crisis is complex -- it has an international
aspect, a European and a national one. We are addressing all three
fields methodically and step by step. It is an illusion to believe
that there is a Plan A, B, or C to solve the refugee crisis.
SPIEGEL: Isn't the
real illusion the idea that Europe is going to help bail Germany out
of the refugee crisis? Austria has announced a cap on the number of
refugees it is willing to take, Denmark has tightened its asylum laws
and Sweden is no longer allowing refugees without papers into the
country.
De Maizière: On
Monday, I sat together with my European counterparts in Amsterdam and
the degree of responsibility they felt was indeed very divergent.
However, it is a mistake if some partners believe they can avoid the
problem. Should the Schengen system of open borders face additional
pressure or its long-term viability continue to be questioned, they
will realize that the refugee crisis than just a German issue,
because all in Europe would be hurt.
SPIEGEL: In
mid-December, the CDU agreed at its party convention that the number
of refugees has to be significantly reduced. How much time do you
have left?
De Maizière: We
want clarity by spring. Compared to September and October, when on
some days as many as 10,000 people entered Germany, the number has
decreased significantly. In January, an average of 2,000 people came
per day, which, projected over a year would still be very many -- too
many. So no matter what, we need to prevent the influx from massively
increasing again in the spring. Time is running out.
SPIEGEL: Is the drop
in the number of refugees in recent weeks solely attributable to bad
weather?
De Maizière: To a
large degree, probably yes. Although there have been sporadic efforts
by Turkey to stop illegal migration across the Aegean Sea, this is
still not happening on the scale that is necessary.
SPIEGEL: What would
happen if Turkey and Europe were to let the German government down?
Would Germany then close its borders to refugees?
De Maizière: I
don't take part in speculation over various scenarios. Instead, I
work to ensure that our approach will be successful.
SPIEGEL: At the
moment there is discussion over stopping refugees at the border
between Slovenia and Croatia.
De Maizière: This
is an idea that is being discussed especially by the southeastern
European countries themselves. But you also have to consider the fact
this would effectively shut Greece out of the Schengen area and could
lead to a backup (of refugees), either in Greece, in Macedonia, where
we already observed this effect this week, or elsewhere in the
Balkans. You cannot simply ignore that.
SPIEGEL: What do you
mean by that?
De Maizière: That
we have to continue to work on other solutions in parallel. It is a
matter of supporting countries, like Lebanon and Jordan, where large
refugee camps are located. It is a matter of establishing a link
between migration and development aid so that we can encourage the
countries of North Africa, especially, to take back illegal migrants
again. And we have to intensify our talks with Turkey.
SPIEGEL: If the
situation is truly to be brought under control by March, then Turkey
has to close its beaches to refugees and traffickers. Is it even
logistically possible for the Turks to control a section of coast
that is several hundred kilometers long?
De Maizière: It
could at least be done much better than it is right now.
SPIEGEL: Turkey is
already accommodating more than 2 million refugees. Viewed from that
perspective, the government in Ankara is likely pleased when refugees
leave the country and head for Europe.
De Maizière: Turkey
and Europe have common interests. Europe is prepared to help with
providing shelter for refugees in Turkey. Turkey is demanding relaxed
visa requirements from the EU. There is also a connection between the
issue of refugees and the battle against the so-called Islamic State.
The perpetrators in Istanbul who killed 10 Germans at the beginning
of January were registered as refugees according to Turkish
investigators. It will surely not contribute to the stabilization of
Turkey domestically if it remains a transit country for refugees in
the long term.
SPIEGEL: At the
moment, Turkey is constructing a massive border fortification along
the Turkish-Syrian border. Is it not hypocritical for Germany to say
it wants to help refugees on the one hand, but then, on the other,
places pressure on Turkey, with the outcome being that an escape
route from the Syrian civil war is blocked?
De Maizière: The
only answer to that is that we need to do everything in our power to
put an end to the horrendous conditions in Syria. Furthermore, there
is nothing fundamentally wrong with border control. We have a fence
on the land border between Turkey and Greece. We have a fence between
Turkey and Bulgaria. We have a fence between Morocco and the Spanish
exclave Melilla. We rightly expect every country in the Schengen zone
to protect its external border. And I am sympathetic to the fact that
Turkey is doing everything it can to prevent the civil war in Syria
from spilling over into its own country.
SPIEGEL: But the
consequence is that Syrians are no longer able to flee from Assad's
barrel bombs.
De Maizière: That
is why it is so important to combat the roots of the flight. I am a
politician, but I am also a Christian and, as such, I worry about the
situation people in the region are in -- and I am convinced that we
in Germany and the international community need and can do
considerably more on this issue. However, it is also true that it is
impossible for Germany to take in all the refugees from the world's
crisis regions. And this especially applies to those people not from
Syria who are coming here for a better life or to look for a job in
Germany.
SPIEGEL: In
retrospect, was it a mistake that Chancellor Merkel didn't explicitly
state at the start of the refugee crisis that Germany does not have
unlimited capacity for taking in people?
De Maizière: We
have done that several times. It was just that the people from the
crisis areas were already on their way -- and they didn't just leave
following the chancellor's decision at the beginning of September to
take in refugees who had been stranded in Hungary.
SPIEGEL: The German
government's central message was, "We can handle this" and
"there is no upper limit for asylum." Do you honestly
believe that this wasn't a trigger that led people to come to
Germany?
De Maizière: I do
not want to be a part of any debates about the causes of the flight
or enticement effects . Surely there were several.
SPIEGEL: Was the
idea of a Willkommenskultur, or welcoming culture, for the refugees a
mistake?
De Maizière:
Asolutely not. We should be proud when refugees say that the German
border official was the first polite police officer they had ever
encountered in their life. Of course you could say that even that
could be an enticement to come. It has to be self-evident that we
seek to provide people with decent accommodations. The personal
experiences that are shared using smartphones play a considerable
role in the fact that so many people want to come to us.
SPIEGEL: So you're
saying that the German government did everything right?
De Maizière:
Please. Who does everything right? Everyone learns in a crisis. We
introduced the nuclear energy phase-out (in Germany) after the
accident at Fukushima. During the financial crisis, we began the
search quite late for a solution for the entire system rather than
rescuing individual banks. And it was relatively late in the euro
crisis that we pushed through stringent conditions. All that was
correct. In the refugee crisis, we have achieved a whole lot during
only five months that would not have been possible without the
crisis.
German Interior
Minister Thomas de Maizière: "We would be doing ourselves all a
favor if we were to refocus on finding a solution to the challenges
instead of stirring up political passions."
SPIEGEL: What have
we learned from the refugee crisis?
De Maizière: We
have agreed on (revisions to our asylum laws through) the Asylum I
and Asylum II legislative bills, we have declared a number of
countries to be safe countries of origin and we have simplified
regulations. Until the middle of last year, when we spoke about
migration, it had been almost exclusively about migration from the
Balkan states. As a result of our measures, that issue has been
largely resolved today. And all of that happened within just a few
months. I think we have demonstrated that were are very capable of
learning.
SPIEGEL: The Asylum
II bill, which limits the right of asylum-seekers to bring family
members who have been left behind to Germany and also makes
deportations easier for people whose asylum applications are
rejected, was delayed for a long time because the conservatives could
not reach an agreement with their government coalition partner, the
center-left Social Democrats. Don't tactical games like this play
right into the hands of the right-wing populist Alternative for
Germany party?
De Maizière: Things
are not that simple, though I would have liked to have seen a quicker
agreement. In any case, it was not due to a lack of reasonable
proposals from my side.
SPIEGEL: There are
numerous people in the police and security agencies who are urging
you to adopt a firmer stance. On the other side, you have Chancellor
Merkel, who has struck a markedly different tone. Do get the feeling
sometimes that you're trapped in the middle?
De Maizière: Each
government minister views the circumstances of each issue
differently. An interior minister has a different view of visa
liberalization than does a foreign minister. An education minister
has a different take on the supply of teachers than a finance
minister. It is my job as interior minister to speak out early and
clearly on the issue of security, order and the integration of
refugees.
SPIEGEL: In the
past, government ministers have stepped down because they no longer
felt they could support their government's policies. Is there a line
in the sand for you in terms of Merkel's refugee policies?
De Maizière: The
German chancellor and I have known each other since the fall of 1989,
26 years. We have worked together very closely in a number of
different capacities. That is more than the normal relationship a
German chancellor has with a cabinet member. Please, you do not need
to be worried about that.
SPIEGEL: Given that
it directs attention at the problems, is the mass criticism by Horst
Seehofer, the head of Merkel's Bavarian sister party, against her
policies actually helpful in a way?
De Maizière: I can
understand it when Horst Seehofer points out the concerns. More
recently, however, I would have preferred more confidential talks
between partners.
SPIEGEL: You are
referring to the letter the Bavarian state government sent in which
it threatened to sue the federal government if it does not implement
an upper limit on the number of refugees entering the country and
move to secure Germany's borders.
De Maizière: Too
many letters are being sent at the moment between people who see each
other frequently in person. It would be better if people discussed
things internally and solved problems together. I also believe there
is only a limited chance that such a lawsuit would be successful. Of
course we are complying with the rules and laws. In addition, if the
Federal Constitutional Court were to agree to take on the case, it is
certain that it would not issue a ruling quickly. That's another
reason why I do not consider Bavaria's action to be a constructive
approach.
SPIEGEL: Are we
currently experiencing the most serious crisis yet in Angela Merkel's
time as chancellor?
De Maizière: That
is something for the historians to determine at some point. Clearly
it is a major challenge. But not just for the chancellor. For
everyone.
SPIEGEL: Let's put
the question another way: Is the crisis so major that it could cause
Merkel to fall?
De Maizière: We
would be doing ourselves all a favor if we were to refocus on finding
a solution to the challenges instead of stirring up political
passions.
SPIEGEL: Has the
crisis already changed Germany?
De Maizière: Yes.
At least there is a change at the moment. And it was surely
intensified by (the events) of New Year's Eve in Cologne. In many
places, the optimistic attitude "We Germans are able to solve
every problem" has been supplanted by the difficult question:
"Are we still capable of solving this?"
SPIEGEL: And this
only happened because we are once again facing a wave of refugees?
De Maizière: I
think there are also other causes. The possible irregularities in the
awarding of the World Cup, the Volkswagen scandal, the problems
encountered in the construction of the new Berlin airport, Hamburg's
failed bid for the Olympics, the high number of refugees, the fear
that terrorism is approaching, still persistent worries about the
euro -- all those things have put a dent in the confidence of many
Germans. This worries me because it has a tendency to make problems
bigger and not smaller.
SPIEGEL: By
contrast, it is Germany's self-confidence that has bothered many of
our neighbors.
De Maizière: There
is a sort of fatigue in our country when it comes to change, more so
in the eastern states than in the western ones. In earlier times,
globalization always appeared at first glance to be happening
elsewhere, and we were the winners. Now the darker side of
globalization has also arrived.
SPIEGEL: Is that
really true? Germany is still faring very well compared to other
countries.
De Maizière: That
is true. For generations parents have been telling their children: We
work hard so that things will be better for you than they are for us.
People can sense that this sentence is no longer as valid. If we work
hard, the best case scenario is that our children and grandchildren
will have things as good as we have them -- and things really are
quite good for us, especially if you look at our history. This causes
many people to conclude: Let's pull the blanket over our heads and
wait for the storm to pass so that nothing will change and things
stay good. I think that's wrong and illusory. We have to address the
challenges of a changed world. But with a lot of people, I think this
fundamental sense of resignation explains a lot.
SPIEGEL: Minister de
Maizière, we thank you for this interview.